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Old Jun 04, 2012, 08:09 AM
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EDIT: ... Pls disregard my original post.... I have my gain thru a variable knob now set and working... it was user error.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 11:18 AM
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good question Flame... that's the exact question to myself I was wondering when we do an adjustment/gain via transmitter knob/slider... I hope someone can churn in from the beta tester..

btw.. if you are still interested of getting the first batch, try to email readymadercdotcom customer service .. they might still have avail bcoz the last time we had an exchanged email is they will have a plentiful on orders from EagleTree.. i am b/o # 10 on their slot so far...


Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAME747 View Post
Al - I see myself using mostly the 2D mode for wing leveling,
To keep is simple let say a gain of
70% for pitch
60% for roll

Works well at slow speeds 1/4 throttle, as we all saw in aero's video the moment he increased speed, his plane started to oscillate, due to too high of a gain for the higher speed

Hence the need for a slider or knob to control the gain
Now coming back to the values I've listed above
Is it safe to say that if the gain control knob/slider is at 100%, that would be 100% of 70% pitch, 60% roll, and if the dial is adjusted while the plane is inflight to let's say 50% then the pitch would be reduced to 35%, and roll to 30% ?

I am pretty sure most users will probably have no use for various or adjustable gain, so for them it should be a rather straight forward process, of set it and forget it

Any idea if E/T will be releasing the manual early

Thanks,

FCA
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 12:10 PM
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USA, KS, Derby
Joined Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAME747 View Post
Al - I see myself using mostly the 2D mode for wing leveling,
To keep is simple let say a gain of
70% for pitch
60% for roll

Works well at slow speeds 1/4 throttle, as we all saw in aero's video the moment he increased speed, his plane started to oscillate, due to too high of a gain for the higher speed

Hence the need for a slider or knob to control the gain
Now coming back to the values I've listed above
Is it safe to say that if the gain control knob/slider is at 100%, that would be 100% of 70% pitch, 60% roll, and if the dial is adjusted while the plane is inflight to let's say 50% then the pitch would be reduced to 35%, and roll to 30% ?

I am pretty sure most users will probably have no use for various or adjustable gain, so for them it should be a rather straight forward process, of set it and forget it

Any idea if E/T will be releasing the manual early

Thanks,

FCA
Quote:
Originally Posted by yurstruly View Post
good question Flame... that's the exact question to myself I was wondering when we do an adjustment/gain via transmitter knob/slider... I hope someone can churn in from the beta tester..

btw.. if you are still interested of getting the first batch, try to email readymadercdotcom customer service .. they might still have avail bcoz the last time we had an exchanged email is they will have a plentiful on orders from EagleTree.. i am b/o # 10 on their slot so far...
The Master Gain which can be assigned to the Tx variable knob or slider multiplies the individual Pitch/Roll/Yaw gains, so your (FLAME747) analogy should be correct.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 03:25 PM
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Great White North
Joined Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAME747 View Post
Al - I see myself using mostly the 2D mode for wing leveling,
To keep is simple let say a gain of
70% for pitch
60% for roll

Works well at slow speeds 1/4 throttle, as we all saw in aero's video the moment he increased speed, his plane started to oscillate, due to too high of a gain for the higher speed

Hence the need for a slider or knob to control the gain
Now coming back to the values I've listed above
Is it safe to say that if the gain control knob/slider is at 100%, that would be 100% of 70% pitch, 60% roll, and if the dial is adjusted while the plane is inflight to let's say 50% then the pitch would be reduced to 35%, and roll to 30% ?

I am pretty sure most users will probably have no use for various or adjustable gain, so for them it should be a rather straight forward process, of set it and forget it

Any idea if E/T will be releasing the manual early

Thanks,

FCA
Hi

Think of the gain this way. If you don't plug the gain lead into your receiver, then the pots on the guardian set your individual gains for pitch, roll, yaw. Next if you plug the gain lead into your receiver, then think of that channel as a multiplier / divider with the neutral point (ie multiplies pot gains by 1) being somewhere between 40 or 50 % of channel travel.

This means that with your dial at or just below the midpoint of the channel - you would be flying at what the gains dictated by what the pots have been set too. As you increase the gains from this neutral point, then you start multiplying the individual roll, pitch, and yaw gains by an ever increasing amount. The opposite happens when you decrease the knob below this neutral point. then the individual gains are divided by an increasing number until zero gains. The nice thing about this is that if you set your pot gains well so that your average flying is really good at that level, then you are only making minor adjustments on the dial around this neutral centre point for example reducing it somewhat for very high speed, or increasing it slightly for landing etc

Think of the pots then as setting up the ratio of pitch, roll, yaw gains, and the dial as a multiplier.

There are multiple other options and approaches. For example, you can correctly set the pot "ratios" for roll, pitch, yaw, but have their overall level lower (or higher) than you want, then the knob/dial would be more important in selecting the desired gain during flight and the "neutral point" of the knob/dial can correspond to something other than if the pots were set for "perfect" flight - lots of options based on your preference.

Also if you discover that your gain (channel travel) for normal flying is X, and for high speed is Y, you can put your gain on a two position switch and use the endpoint of the channel to correspond to the level of the dial you had found for the two flight modes!!

Let me know if I can help further in a specific example

Al
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otrcman View Post
I may have missed this detail along the way, but are the modes (2D, 3D, etc.) and the gains controlled by the same channel like rate and HH are controlled on a typical gyro? Or are modes and gains on separate channels ?

Thanks,

Dick
same gain channel. but you could assign a mix between your mode switch button, to your gain channel so when you change from 2D to 3D the new gain would be applied. This of course will require you to initially find the correct gains for the two modes in flight testing with the gain on a knob / dial channel first
Al
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 03:34 PM
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Joined Jun 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
To reduce pilot workload during take-off and landing, some users, especially with scale planes, might find it useful to use an existing function to control mode or gain, like gear or flaps or air-brakes. You could perhaps have gain high when gear is down and lower when gear is up or 2D when flaps are extended and 3D when they are up.
Yes this is totally doable once you find nice gains for each flight mode using a dial channel, then you just reassign the gain to a 2 position switch (or three) and use endpoints of the channel to set the low and high position to the channel travel you discovered during flight testing with the gain Knob controlling the overall gain.

Now you have two gains at a flick of a switch without worrying about accidentally setting gain too low or too high with a dial

Al
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 04:15 PM
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Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alros_100 View Post
Hi

Think of the gain this way. If you don't plug the gain lead into your receiver, then the pots on the guardian set your individual gains for pitch, roll, yaw. Next if you plug the gain lead into your receiver, then think of that channel as a multiplier / divider with the neutral point (ie multiplies pot gains by 1) being somewhere between 40 or 50 % of channel travel.

This means that with your dial at or just below the midpoint of the channel - you would be flying at what the gains dictated by what the pots have been set too. As you increase the gains from this neutral point, then you start multiplying the individual roll, pitch, and yaw gains by an ever increasing amount. The opposite happens when you decrease the knob below this neutral point. then the individual gains are divided by an increasing number until zero gains. The nice thing about this is that if you set your pot gains well so that your average flying is really good at that level, then you are only making minor adjustments on the dial around this neutral centre point for example reducing it somewhat for very high speed, or increasing it slightly for landing etc

Think of the pots then as setting up the ratio of pitch, roll, yaw gains, and the dial as a multiplier.

There are multiple other options and approaches. For example, you can correctly set the pot "ratios" for roll, pitch, yaw, but have their overall level lower (or higher) than you want, then the knob/dial would be more important in selecting the desired gain during flight and the "neutral point" of the knob/dial can correspond to something other than if the pots were set for "perfect" flight - lots of options based on your preference.

Also if you discover that your gain (channel travel) for normal flying is X, and for high speed is Y, you can put your gain on a two position switch and use the endpoint of the channel to correspond to the level of the dial you had found for the two flight modes!!

Let me know if I can help further in a specific example

Al
Al - Excellent write up, it is all clear as a bell now.


Yurstruly I already pre-ordered one from ReadymadeRc, However when I inquired last week as to if they had any unspoken for units from the initial batch, they responded via email that they were not allowed to disclose how many units they ordered.

FCA
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 04:30 PM
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USA, KS, Derby
Joined Mar 2003
1,475 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by alros_100 View Post
Hi

Think of the gain this way. If you don't plug the gain lead into your receiver, then the pots on the guardian set your individual gains for pitch, roll, yaw. Next if you plug the gain lead into your receiver, then think of that channel as a multiplier / divider with the neutral point (ie multiplies pot gains by 1) being somewhere between 40 or 50 % of channel travel.

This means that with your dial at or just below the midpoint of the channel - you would be flying at what the gains dictated by what the pots have been set too. As you increase the gains from this neutral point, then you start multiplying the individual roll, pitch, and yaw gains by an ever increasing amount. The opposite happens when you decrease the knob below this neutral point. then the individual gains are divided by an increasing number until zero gains. The nice thing about this is that if you set your pot gains well so that your average flying is really good at that level, then you are only making minor adjustments on the dial around this neutral centre point for example reducing it somewhat for very high speed, or increasing it slightly for landing etc

Think of the pots then as setting up the ratio of pitch, roll, yaw gains, and the dial as a multiplier.

There are multiple other options and approaches. For example, you can correctly set the pot "ratios" for roll, pitch, yaw, but have their overall level lower (or higher) than you want, then the knob/dial would be more important in selecting the desired gain during flight and the "neutral point" of the knob/dial can correspond to something other than if the pots were set for "perfect" flight - lots of options based on your preference.

Also if you discover that your gain (channel travel) for normal flying is X, and for high speed is Y, you can put your gain on a two position switch and use the endpoint of the channel to correspond to the level of the dial you had found for the two flight modes!!

Let me know if I can help further in a specific example

Al
Al,
Pls bear with me here as I am very slow when it comes to this...

Ok, so based on the above, if I have my Roll Pot set to 60% and if my Master Gain dial is set at the middle (50%) then the resulting gyro gain is as per the Roll Pot which is 60%, correct? If so, if I turn the dial down to 1/4 turn from minimum (25%) what will be the resulting gyro gain? What if I turn the dial up to 3/4 turn from minimum (75%) what will be the resulting gyro gain?

I am setting my Master Gain right now and want to set an acceptable initial gain from the pots which I want to be able to vary thru the Master Gain, so I want to fully understand this. I actually thought that the Master Gain dial ranges from 0% to 100% and that at 100% is where the gains in the pots are multiplied by 1 while if the master gain dial is in the middle then the gains in the pots is multiplied by 0.5 .

Thanks,
Rico.
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Old Jun 04, 2012, 11:40 PM
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Honolulu
Joined Jul 2003
109 Posts
Hello All
I was able to load up the PC interface for the Guardian and do some additional testing this weekend.
Sorry no additional video my friend was out of town that usually videos.

It was a typical windy day at the field

03 16:57 NE 10 G 22 10.00 Partly Cloudy FEW028 SCT050 79 70 74% NA 82 30.08 1018.0
03 15:57 NE 13 G 20 10.00 Overcast FEW028 OVC055 78 67 69% NA 80 30.08 1018.2
03 14:57 NE 15 G 24 10.00 Partly Cloudy SCT027 SCT046 86 72 63% NA 92 30.09 1018.5
03 13:57 NE 12 G 18 10.00 Fair CLR 82 66 58% NA 84 30.11 1019.0
03 12:57 NE 13 G 21 10.00 Fair CLR 80 64 59% NA 82 30.13 1019.6
03 11:57 NE 13 G 21 10.00 Mostly Cloudy SCT030 SCT038 BKN050 80 64 59% NA 82 30.14 1020.2

Test 1: Ability to change, servo update rate with PC software. Most digital servos update at around 250 Hz, most analog servos about 50 to 70 Hz (Guardian default 50 Hz, the Futaba GY-401 analog setting is 70 Hz). In my F-4D I have Futaba S9156 servos on the elevons, and a JR DS368 servo on rudder (DS386 = 300 Hz update speed). I did not know the Futaba update speed but knew it was at least 250 Hz, so I set the Guardian at 250 Hz.

You must be careful when changing this setting you must use the lowest servo refresh rate of all you servos connected to the Guardian. If you had 2 digital servos and 1 analog for instance you would need to set it at 50 Hz, the digitals will work fine at this setting. If you try and run an Analog servo at a higher refresh rate than it can handle it will burn out.

Results: Two weeks ago, at 50% master gain the F-4D oscillated in roll, now at 250 Hz I was able to fly at full throttle at that gain without oscillation. Another effect was now my roll control was much more dampened and the overall effectiveness of the gyro was better. I did feel with the increased gyro effectiveness it felt like you had to really push the controls, this is where direct rate would be great.

Test 2: 2D mode recovery from unusual attitudes.

Method 1: Roll inverted recovery. Ok put Guardian in off position, then rolled the F-4D inverted (1.5 split S high just in case) activated 2D, it very, and I mean very quickly rolled upright and level no overshoot totally impressive, I will get video of this next week.

Method 2: Pitch straight up. Guardian off pulled F-4D into vertical climb turned 2D on plane pushed over leveled out non issue.

Method 3: Vertical dive. Guardian off pulled F-4D into loop on backside of loop pointing straight down turned 2D on plane pulled up leveled out non issue.

Conclusion: Testing went normally, the increased resolution that was available to the digital servos when you turn up the update speed was impressive, settings that resulted in oscillations at 50 Hz were rock solid at 250 Hz. The decreased control authority due to the Guardian working better really made me want to test direct 3D rate but did not have the time to set it up properly so that will have to wait for the upcoming Sunday.
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Old Jun 05, 2012, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricoalonso View Post
Al,
Pls bear with me here as I am very slow when it comes to this...

Ok, so based on the above, if I have my Roll Pot set to 60% and if my Master Gain dial is set at the middle (50%) then the resulting gyro gain is as per the Roll Pot which is 60%, correct? If so, if I turn the dial down to 1/4 turn from minimum (25%) what will be the resulting gyro gain? What if I turn the dial up to 3/4 turn from minimum (75%) what will be the resulting gyro gain?

I am setting my Master Gain right now and want to set an acceptable initial gain from the pots which I want to be able to vary thru the Master Gain, so I want to fully understand this. I actually thought that the Master Gain dial ranges from 0% to 100% and that at 100% is where the gains in the pots are multiplied by 1 while if the master gain dial is in the middle then the gains in the pots is multiplied by 0.5 .

Thanks,
Rico.
Hi Rico

Yes your interpretation is correct - between 40-50% travel (somewhere in there !!) your gain multiplier is 1x so the gains are as set by the pots, and should be the same if you disconnected the gain lead from your receiver. At a level below that with the dial and gain connected to receiver, the "overall gain" is progressively lower than set by the pots" and above that 40-50 range, the gain is higher than set by the pots.

You can test it out your self by comparing the gains with and without the gain lead attached to your receiver with the dial in that 40-50 range.

The reason I became attuned to this is because during my testing of the guardian controlled quadcopter, we decided to disconnect the gain lead all together so that we could directly set PID values for stability without them being influenced by a multiplier during flying so that we could know exactly what PID values (set in the PC software) worked best etc

Al
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Old Jun 05, 2012, 06:24 AM
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Thank you, Al.

I'm glad I asked. For a moment I thought that onced I have my Master Gain connected and set in the middle, that my resulting gains are being one half of the pots gains. I was ready to have it set at 60% and 70%... could had been interesting . Now I have it set back to 30% and 40% with the Master Gain in the middle. the same values when I did not have the Master Gain connected.

Thanks again,
Rico.
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Old Jun 07, 2012, 09:58 AM
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Just a note on the Master gain:

Its range of adjustment is optimized for use on a Knob or Slider, and so the endpoints go from Min to Max on a continuous scale.

0 <---------------> 100

When you assign the Master Gain to a 2-position switch it cuts this continuous scale in half. So you have...

Pos0 = Min -> Half or 0<---->50
Pos1 = Half -> Max or 50<--->100


Represented as travel end points in my Dx-8 menu we get,
Pos0 as visually represented with 100-0 but you still get 0<--->50
Pos1 as visually represented as 0-100 but you still get 50<--->100

So I'm afraid that the DX-8 or any other Spektrum radio will leave people confused because of the numbering scale that is used.

Thus, for a 2-position switch a travel endpoint setting of 70 in pos0 does not equal 70 in pos1 when applied to the Master Gain!

Don't know about other radios.
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Old Jun 07, 2012, 11:37 AM
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USA, KS, Derby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
Just a note on the Master gain:

Its range of adjustment is optimized for use on a Knob or Slider, and so the endpoints go from Min to Max on a continuous scale.

0 <---------------> 100

When you assign the Master Gain to a 2-position switch it cuts this continuous scale in half. So you have...

Pos0 = Min -> Half or 0<---->50
Pos1 = Half -> Max or 50<--->100


Represented as travel end points in my Dx-8 menu
Pos0 is visually represented with 100-0 but you still get 0<--->50
Pos1 is visually represented as 0-100 but you still get 50<--->100

So I'm afraid that the DX-8 or any other Spektrum radio will leave people confused because of the numbering scale that is used.

A travel endpoint setting of 70 in pos0 does not equal 70 in pos1 when applied to the Master Gain!

Don't know about other radios.
I guess that's really the same as Futaba (at least for T8FG). Sliders, Knob and switches when monitored from the servo monitor has the travels in either side scaled as -100 to 0 & 0 to +100 . But, I guess, I understand that the master gain is still scaled as 0-100%.

So, -100 to 0% in my dial is 0-50% of the Master Gain while 0 to +100% in my dial is 50-100% of the Master Gain.
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Old Jun 07, 2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricoalonso View Post
I guess that's really the same as Futaba (at least for T8FG). Sliders, Knob and switches when monitored from the servo monitor has the travels in either side scaled as -100 to 0 & 0 to +100 . But, I guess, I understand that the master gain is still scaled as 0-100%.

So, -100 to 0% in my dial is 0-50% of the Master Gain while 0 to +100% in my dial is 50-100% of the Master Gain.
Yep.....
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Old Jun 09, 2012, 07:12 AM
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New Zealand, Wellington, Upper Hutt
Joined Feb 2011
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Hi Bill,

I Pre-ordered and pre-paid for a Guardian some weeks ago with the believe that I would have receipt of the unit by now. No unit yet. Can you please advise a resonable expectation when I should see my Guardian.

I'm real keen to get the unit so I can go and start learning to fly RC. If it takes another week or two so be it but an indication would be great.

Cheers,
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