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Old Jan 15, 2012, 11:42 AM
Square-rigger
meatbomber's Avatar
Klatovy, Czech Republic
Joined Mar 2004
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Dunno if you know this but it might be worth a look:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collect...t=0;century=17

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collect...ts/141715.html
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Old Jan 16, 2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatbomber View Post
No, didnīt know that!

Definitely worth more than just one look!

Van der Velde has really been a great artist.

I will have to digg into that much more.

Thanks a lot,
Meatbomber

PS:
Iīm just wondering why he had documented several early (dutch) frigates,
but seemingly nobody else - especially early engish frigates.
Frigates also had some tactical and strategic importance in these days.
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Old Jan 23, 2012, 10:10 AM
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Donīt buy this!

Mr. Yancovitch was so nice to send me a link of a very promising looking plastic kit of:
"Orel Russian Navy XVII Century Sail Ship" at 1:72 scale on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/220933444938?...84.m1423.l2649

Hell, was I interested.
As it seemed to fit perfectly into the time AND style I am looking for.

But I did a google search on this kit first.
Lucky me - it is CRAP!!!

http://www.modellversium.de/kit/artikel.php?id=2074
(Thatīs in German, but anyway -
translate it or just look at the provided pics of the kit)

And not only that - it is not even CLOSE to a 17th century galeon.
Much more like a 15th century spanish galeon!

The actual kit in the box got absolutely NOTHING to do
with the picture ON that box -...-



"HOLY CRAP" indeed.
_____________

Vic, thank you very much for your efforts!
Iīm learning a bit more every day -
and this was a very good lesson learned!

Link to the russian site:
http://windgammers.narod.ru/Korabli/Orel.html
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Last edited by disabled; Jan 23, 2012 at 10:17 AM.
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Old Jan 23, 2012, 10:24 AM
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well, i did title it "another nothing" ....but i figured you're the kind of guy who will learn something or make something good out of anything ...and you did of course......
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Old Jan 23, 2012, 10:25 AM
Square-rigger
meatbomber's Avatar
Klatovy, Czech Republic
Joined Mar 2004
3,338 Posts
http://windgammers.narod.ru/Korabli/Orel.html but you need to have the page translated.. google translate works ok

this page not only has history on these ships but also downloadable plans, but make sure you have a good virus scanner on before venturing there klick here if sure
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Old Jan 23, 2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatbomber View Post
http://windgammers.narod.ru/Korabli/Orel.html but you need to have the page translated.. google translate works ok

this page not only has history on these ships but also downloadable plans, but make sure you have a good virus scanner on before venturing there klick here if sure
Thankīs for the warning, Mate!

And for Vic:
Thankīs also, you are too kind!
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Old Jan 25, 2012, 06:30 AM
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Relations, proportions and dimensions.

While Iīm still fumbling around with dozens of different linedrawings of early frigates between 1600 and 1650 - english, dutch, french and now also russian galeons - Iīm still wondering about the lines of these dutch ships shown here.

The way William van der Velde the younger drew them appears strange to me.
I donīt like the interruption of the gunwhales with gunports.

I wouldnīt build it that way.
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Old Jan 25, 2012, 09:13 AM
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hmmmmmmm....but that's what i do like about them....in fact that's why i hardly ever build french ships or even spanish......i love the way the planking and wales of the british ships so beautifully follow the graceful lines of the hull, and the decks and gunports remain straightish, and cut through the wales......the french and spanish ships generally had straight wales, and i think, planking...like the later constitution etc.....and they never really appealed to me.... more like an athletic woman opposed to a soft curvaceous one , i always loved a ship who made love with the ocean, rather than try to conquer it.....and it was always a mystery to me how the british, who were always advertised to be rather cold, detached, and proper, could come out with such beautiful and sensual creations.......where the french who were generally more described as the latter, built such straight hulls and lines, with the gun ports and wales so straight....aside from the decorations of course.....even my royal william though straightish, had the wales compromised ........but that's just my inclination...........
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Old Jan 25, 2012, 09:49 AM
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I can fully agree, īcause -...

Quote:
Originally Posted by yancovitch View Post
hmmmmmmm....but that's what i do like about them....in fact that's why i hardly ever build french ships or even spanish......i love the way the planking and wales of the british ships so beautifully follow the graceful lines of the hull, and the decks and gunports remain straightish, and cut through the wales......the french and spanish ships generally had straight wales, and i think, planking...like the later constitution etc.....and they never really appealed to me.... more like an athletic woman opposed to a soft curvaceous one , i always loved a ship who made love with the ocean, rather than try to conquer it.....and it was always a mystery to me how the british, who were always advertised to be rather cold, detached, and proper, could come out with such beautiful and sensual creations.......where the french who were generally more described as the latter, built such straight hulls and lines, with the gun ports and wales so straight....aside from the decorations of course.....even my royal william though straightish, had the wales compromised ........but that's just my inclination...........
"...- a soft curvaceous one -...-" is what I also want, but:

It worked out fine with the "older ones", but not with later designs?
Doesnīt make sense to me.
This is why I somehow still try to stick with the "Red Lion".

Of course there are practical and aesthetical considerations -
and both do not necesserily fit together,
but I would LIKE them to fit together.

Thatīs why Iīm still looking for further examples.
Just to see how other master shipwrights solved the problem.

You see - it didnīt work out for the russian "Orel" anymore, which is also a dutch design - and also the "Pinasship" has allready a step in the aftward gundeck (because the most aftward gun is placed lower).
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Old Jan 25, 2012, 10:11 AM
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This other drawing of the "Orel" is different!

Most gunports are following exactly the line(s) of the wales, but then towards the stern the curve of the deck is somehow
"dropping down".

And especially this drawing of van der Velde:
The wales are curved upward, but the line of the gunports is actually curving down towards the stern. For me this appears as ugly!

All Iīm saying is - if I was a shipwright, I wouldnīt have done it that way -...-
Oups!
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Last edited by disabled; Jan 25, 2012 at 10:47 AM.
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Old Jan 26, 2012, 12:42 AM
Taking care of the pond.
MILLERTIME's Avatar
USA, CA, Fresno
Joined Apr 2004
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"Everything can be overdone! This is not beautiful anymore."

I agree.
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Old Jan 26, 2012, 07:04 AM
SCALE Sailor
JerryTodd's Avatar
United States, MD, Severna Park
Joined Apr 2008
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The aesthetics of ship design have been lost for some time now:

vs

Ships today are just plain ugly
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Old Jan 26, 2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryTodd View Post
The aesthetics of ship design have been lost for some time now:

Ships today are just plain ugly
Sad, but definitely true!!!

Thatīs why Iīm looking for a really beautiful, harmonic Galeon between 1600 and 1660, where aesthetics and emotions where as important as rationality and pure firepower.
Could be necessary to digg a little bit deeper into the early french designs.
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Old Jan 26, 2012, 10:58 AM
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ha ha ha how right you are jerrytodd!!
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Old Jan 26, 2012, 12:09 PM
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belgium,limburg
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htthttp://www.ancre.fr/Product.aspx?ID=3708236&L=ENp://

see pdf ,right above.

i love her ,mayby my next ship??????????
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