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Old Oct 30, 2010, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Julez View Post
..................and Jeti is currently the second most popular system after FASST here for a reason.
That is untrue .... since when is Jeti a "system"? Do they sell their stuff with own transmitters? (Don't give me the link to the Jeti-webpage, where they sell original Graupner-transmitters with build-in Jeti, that is not what people mean by a "own Jeti transmitter").

You can't compare apples with oranges, but that is, what you are doing here.

Futaba FASST is an own whole complete system, beginning with the transmitter, the HF-module, receivers and even servos. The Jeti offer is ..... just a HF-module, the receivers and the telemetry stuff, that's it. No one is able to control an airplane with only products from Jeti, you will need a lot of stuff from other manufacturers too.

Anyway, if Jeti will not introduce their own transmitters, this brand will completely disappear in a few years. No need to buy Jeti anymore, if Graupner offers the same for less money.


Udo
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 12:41 PM
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system is a radio system, like PCM1024 or XPS or DSM2 or Weatronics, that is the same as Jeti or Fasst or Hott or FrSky...
By the way, smaller FASST modules (TM-7 and TM-8) do use old good PPM to communicate between transmitter and "radio system"..
As for "less money", there are competitors. And if You count couple of parkfyler receivers, even M-Link will result as less money.
And if You need at least one really good receiver, e.g. 12 channel, some competitors just disappear from the list - including Graupner..
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udogigahertz View Post
That is untrue .... since when is Jeti a "system"? Udo
Since when does the definition of "system" have a part stating that any "system" whatsoever must include a plastic box with two sticks on it?
Quote:
System (from Latin systēma, in turn from Greek σύστημα systēma, "whole compounded of several parts or members, system", literary "composition"[1]) is a set of interacting or interdependent system components forming an integrated whole.
Source.

Udo, without your expertise, the world of RC would surely be doomed.
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Julez View Post
Since when does the definition of "system" have a part stating that any "system" whatsoever must include a plastic box with two sticks on it?


Source.

Udo, without your expertise, the world of RC would surely be doomed.
Maybe, so you say, that you are able to control a model airplane just by using a "Jeti-system", or "Weatronic-system", without such a "primitive-box with sticks"? Happy landings.

Udo
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 04:58 PM
Xtreme Power Systems
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Seale View Post
I know that the AMA has allowed people to fly in the US with Jeti and this does not have FCC certification.
The AMA announced some time ago that non-FCC certified systems are not allowed to be used at AMA sanctioned fields, events, etc. It's also illegal in the U.S. for any citizen to operate a commercial non-certified device.

I was told that the HoTT system uses the exact same RF system as XPS and JETI, but it is not compatible with either. So, its the same technology in a different box.

Graupner tested our system for 6 months prior to starting sales. Hans Graupner has flown it for many years without any issues. Unfortunately, instead of capitalizing on new power system sales, Graupner down played the critical requirement for voltage with computer based systems as they thought not being able to use a 10 year old 4.8v Nicd pack was a "weakness". They even went so far as allowing Stefan Volker (world champion jet pilot) put a piece of black tape over the receiver status LED so the low voltage warning would not annoy him. It's this type of mentality that has been an issue for iFS. iFS is still being supported by Graupner, with all new telemetry radios being released that are iFS compatible. Graupner is kind of the Walmart of the European hobby industry. They pick and sell a lot of items. They added several other 2.4GHz systems last year, and I am sure they will continue to add even more systems.
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Old Oct 30, 2010, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JimDrew View Post
Graupner tested our system for 6 months prior to starting sales. Hans Graupner has flown it for many years without any issues. Unfortunately, instead of capitalizing on new power system sales, Graupner down played the critical requirement for voltage with computer based systems as they thought not being able to use a 10 year old 4.8v Nicd pack was a "weakness". They even went so far as allowing Stefan Volker (world champion jet pilot) put a piece of black tape over the receiver status LED so the low voltage warning would not annoy him. It's this type of mentality that has been an issue for iFS. iFS is still being supported by Graupner, with all new telemetry radios being released that are iFS compatible. Graupner is kind of the Walmart of the European hobby industry. They pick and sell a lot of items. They added several other 2.4GHz systems last year, and I am sure they will continue to add even more systems.
Why you are telling this inside-stories to the public? Those comments from you in connection with the other statements of you according to the financial situation of Graupner are not the "state of the art", how partners in business should deal with each other. If I would be Graupner, I would not be amused now. Is it possible, that you would like to quit the contracts with Graupner? Like that you would be able to sell your products directly to your European costumers.

Udo
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Maybe, so you say, that you are able to control a model airplane just by using a "Jeti-system",
Where did I say this?
Don't spread the word, but even a single servo is a "system".


Quote:
The AMA announced some time ago that non-FCC certified systems are not allowed to be used at AMA sanctioned fields, events, etc. It's also illegal in the U.S. for any citizen to operate a commercial non-certified device.
You miss the point. FCC certification is not neccessary for radio equipment, which is adressed by the FCC part 15 regulations.
Could you also point us to any other source confirming what you wrote concerning the AMA anouncement?

Quote:
They added several other 2.4GHz systems last year
No wonder, as XPS is a shelf warmer here.

Quote:
I was told that the HoTT system uses the exact same RF system as XPS and JETI
Nonsense, as usual. XPS cannot use more than 16 channels, HoTT uses 75.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Julez View Post
You miss the point. FCC certification is not neccessary for radio equipment, which is adressed by the FCC part 15 regulations.
I've done a lot of research into the part 15 rules, and you are missing a few points. Part 15 is set up for inventors and hobbiests to be able to make and use unlicensed devices themselves. Summary is person must be builder and owner to be legal, this is why kits can be legal. ANY completed (assembled) transmitter device (and pretty much anything that emits a signal that falls under the non-intentional transmitters category) that is sold MUST be certified with the FCC to be legal. I think part of the confusion is with the term "unlicensed", this refers to the person operating the equipment, not the equipment itself. You do not need any FCC license to operate part 15 equipment, you do need a license to operate a transmitter in the 50 and 53 Mhz bands.

I think this article may help:
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineeri...3/oet63rev.pdf
On page 5, second paragraph we have this:
Quote:
Although an operator does not have to obtain a license to use a Part 15 transmitter, the
transmitter itself is required to have an FCC authorization before it can be legally
marketed
in the United States.
Marketed meaning sold, given, or exchanged in any way.

Now as far as non-FCC system being used at competitions in the USA, they could get special single day waivers from the FCC if they jump through enough hoops to obtain those waivers and provide sufficient proof that these device will not interfere with any other devices outside the area of the competition.. This is the same if they wanted to set up a temporary FM transmitter to provide audio coverage of the event beyond the range of a typical part 15 FM transmitter. All of it can be allowed if the proper paperwork and safeguards have been completed.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 11:24 AM
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It ist illegal to fly without FCC registration in US ! Whoever tells you something different, lies.

So here is a simple question concerning that matter : Why did all the major vendors for RC equipment in US, like Spektrum, Futaba, Airtronics, Hitec, XPS, +++ get a FCC registration for their RC stuff and spend hundredthousands of dollars to get it, if this is not necessary?

By the way Julez just published in a forum thread that will do everything to push Graupners HoTT system in US.

So don't believe this guy!

Especially don't believe him when he talks about competitiveness of the HoTT system:

First prices for receivers are much higher when comparing them to prices of equivalent Hitec receivers in US or UK.

Second up to now you only get a few TX's and RX's and e.g. cant buy the telemetry stuff. So the system is only partly available.

And yes it is true for some competitions in US, AMA has made an exception for pilots from overseas and yes they could then fly with Jeti at those competitions.

Juergen
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 12:48 PM
Xtreme Power Systems
Lake Havasu, AZ
Joined Jun 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by udogigahertz View Post
Why you are telling this inside-stories to the public? Those comments from you in connection with the other statements of you according to the financial situation of Graupner are not the "state of the art", how partners in business should deal with each other. If I would be Graupner, I would not be amused now. Is it possible, that you would like to quit the contracts with Graupner? Like that you would be able to sell your products directly to your European costumers.

Udo
XPS and Graupner are not "partners". Graupner sells our products under the iFS brand name. We do not, and have not, had any type of contract with Graupner.

Julez, you can search the AMA website, and look in the back issues of a recent Model Aviation magazine for the information from technical director (Greg Hahn). The AMA's position is clear, if the unit is not marked with a FCC ID on it, then it can not be used at an AMA sanctioned field or event. It's also interesting that you would push the HoTT system. It's the same thing that JETI copied from us, so it must be horrible, right?
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 01:02 PM
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Come on Jürgen,

are you frustrated that you are already the laughing stock in all german forums?
Go troll and push your hitec stuff somewhere else, and take your personal agenda with you.
Quote:
It ist illegal to fly without FCC registration in US !
Yadda,Yadda, and everyone who does, is imprisoned, shot, and buried in Guantanamo Bay. Sure thing. The Microstar builders are currently seeking asylum in Iran, as they are wanted in the US for the crime of building toy transmitters on their own:
http://mstar2k.com/index.php?option=...ures&Itemid=53

How about reading:
Quote:
Home-Built Transmitters that are Not for Sale

Hobbyists, inventors and other parties that design and build Part 15 transmitters with no intention of ever marketing them may construct and operate up to five such transmitters for their own personal use without having to obtain FCC equipment authorization. If possible, these transmitters should be tested for compliance with the Commission's rules. If such testing is not practicable, their designers and builders are required to employ good engineering practices in order to ensure compliance with the Part 15 standards.
Where exactly does it say here, that any part more complicated than a vacuum tube is inadmissable to build a transmitter?



Quote:
ANY completed (assembled) transmitter device (and pretty much anything that emits a signal that falls under the non-intentional transmitters category) that is sold MUST be certified with the FCC to be legal.
The point is that the HOTT system is no completed transmitter device, and that it is not sold in the US, but somewhere else.

Quote:
you can search the AMA website
I already did, and I found nothing to back up your FUD.

Quote:
It's the same thing that JETI copied from us
With the slight difference, that Jeti has actually working telemetry, actually available sensors, and lacks the problems XPS has, concerning low voltage reboots for example. As a result, XPS is among the least popular systems here.
Let's wait and see how things are in a year from now. I predict that it will be no problem for the HOTT system to overtake XPS in popularity here, even though it had a head start.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julez View Post
The point is that the HOTT system is no completed transmitter device, and that it is not sold in the US, but somewhere else.
Wait just a second, you were the one saying that it did not need a certification to be sold and used in the USA. Back in post #10 you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julez View Post
Just like Jeti, Graupners HOTT system falls under Part 15 of the FCC, and does therefore not need any FCC certification to be operated.
All I was trying to do was clear up that if it is to be used in the USA, it must be FCC certified, just like it must be certified in EU, UK, and France to be used in those member countries.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Wait just a second, you were the one saying that it did not need a certification to be sold
No, I did not say this. Where do you read the word "sold" in the sentence you quoted?

Read post #14, please.

You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between "operating" a system and "commercially selling" it.

If someone intends to commercially sell a system in the US, it needs to be certified.

The FCC Part 15 rules say, that a selfmade transmitter for personal use does not need a certification. I quoted the exact text previously.

The FCC does not specify any components that must or must not be used when building a transmitter. It does not state, that premade components must not be used. So if a hobbyist buys several parts and combines them in order to get a working transmitter, this device does not have to be licensed according to the FCC.
If a hobbyist buys a PPM generator in form of a plastic case with two sticks on it, some wire, maybe a switch, a battery pack, and a Jeti or HOTT module from abroad, and combines these parts to get a working transmitter, he acts exactly as described in the FCC document. No registration neccessary.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 02:11 PM
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Since it is a commercial product, it must have certification to be operated within the USA, page 6 of the document I linked sort of dances around this issue without coming right out and saying it. It is not a self designed and operated system and is not a kit system, so therefore it must be certified to allow legal operation in the USA.

And as to the above Microstar comment, most of us are trying to stay legal by using completely self contained certified transmitter systems like these 2.4Ghz systems that are designed to go into any radio. Other people with amateur radio licenses are allowed to use the 50 and 53 Mhz channels as well as any other frequencies that their license allows them to use for remote control at any power level their license allows. Those that want to run an unlicensed and uncertified transmitter in their Microstar do so at their own risk, this risk can have fines up to $10,000.00 USD for a first offense and more for additional offenses, it is not encouraged on the MP8K group to run an illegal RF system. Note the words "self contained", there is nothing more required to put these into operation than to apply power.

I think you are starting to argue this point just for the sake of arguing.
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Old Oct 31, 2010, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Since it is a commercial product, it must have certification to be operated within the USA
The Jeti or HoTT modules are commercial products, but no working transmitters. A selfbuilt working transmitter system is no commercial product any more.
Try to make such a module, as it is sold, transmit anything, it will not work.
So what do you want to certify? The non-existant transmissions of a single module lying on a workbench?
One has to install, wire, and power the module by oneself. At this exact moment the resulting system becomes a selfbuilt one; the requirement for certificaton ceases at the same moment.

Heck, even when a Jeti module is fed power and PPM, it does not transmit. Only when it "sees" a matching RX, it powers up and starts transmitting.
So, in order to get a working system, the following components are required:
1) PPM Source ("TX" case)
2) Battery pack
3) cable harness
4) module
5) RX
6) RX battery
7) optional switch harness, Lipo regulator, whatever

Throw in up to 4 optional, additional telemetry sensors, satellite recievers, external displax boxes etc, and the system adds up to quite a lot of parts.

Only when all this stuff is combined and correctly assembled, one can get a system that actually transmits something.
Sounds pretty much like "selfbuilt" to me.
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