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Old Jun 28, 2010, 01:21 PM
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You can't do 4 channels without servos on a coaxial, not and have it look anything like a real helicopter would. Notice that on the 3 channel toy KB mentioned the rotor faces upwards?

That's the same way you'd have to do 4 channels without a swash. You'd have to have two small rotors, one on each side of the helicopter, with a mixer setup so that they'd spin in order to make the helicopter lean. All in all far more hassle than it's worth when you can just add a swash and eliminate 3 esc and 3 motors (1 motor for each side and 1 on tail).

Real helicopters have swash plates. So if the plan is to make it fly anything like a real helicopter you'll need a swash and servos.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 01:57 AM
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I was asking about the 3-channel killbucket gave me. The project does not have to be like a real helicopter, as long as it is remote controlled and toy helicopter, it's good. Can you help me with my previous questions? Thank you.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 05:11 AM
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The thing is what you're talking about building is a quadcopter, which will cost quite a bit more to build than a 4 channel coaxial and it won't look or fly anything like a helicopter at all toy or not.

You're talking about 4 motors, 4 esc, 4 propellers, 3 gyros,3 mixers, and a whole lot of trial and error to get it working right.

It would make far more sense to use 2 servos, 2 esc, 2 motors, 1 mixer, and 1 set of off the shelf blades.

Why do you insist on not having a swash?

It's hard to answer a question when your question really doesn't ask anything in particular. A 3 channel would fly the same with a dx6i as it does with the stock remote. There wouldn't really be any special programming. The problem is that you're probably not going to be able to get a receiver to work with one without major modification. The cheapest receivers that you can use with a DX6i that are real Horizon products run $50. It doesn't seem to make much sense to buy a $35 helicopter (almost all 3 channel helicopter use infrared rather than radio), then buy a $50 receiver that you're going to hack up and solder into the mix.

With the same $85 you'd spend to do that you can just buy a Lama V4 and use the stock radio and you'll have a flying 2.4ghz system to play with. The thing you're not really understanding here is that I'm not just some random person that's posting based on limited knowledge. I'm about as close as you can come to an "expert" on coaxials.

If you want proper answers you're going to have to start asking proper questions. You're trying to skip the entire learning curve for RC and go straight to designing a new model. It's like trying to design a car and never having rode in or driven one. You really need to get yourself a helicopter and learn to fly before you try and start designing anything.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 05:58 AM
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Yes, Q&A can go on...forever.

GET a small copter, even a toy one. Once you start playing with it, and possibly repairing it, you will answer your own questions.



Lithium polymer cell LiPo LiPoly cut open, placed in water, then acid (7 min 49 sec)

A good example of how much abuse a lipo will take. This is a good sized cell, fully charged, and you see how it reacts.

When you hear about a Lipo taking out a house, I submit that carelessness, not faulty tech, is at hand. Somebody's walked away from one, and forgot about it for too long on a charger or something.


IMHO.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 08:27 AM
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I've got a dragonfly (some cheap chinese) conventional non-coaxial helicopter. I played with it for like 2 weeks before crashing it into a tree. I really thought the LiPo would blow up as soon as he added acid into the battery, but it did not.

Quote:
The thing is what you're talking about building is a quadcopter, which will cost quite a bit more to build than a 4 channel coaxial and it won't look or fly anything like a helicopter at all toy or not.
It's not quadrotor. The setup I have in mind is that keeping the 2 motors - 2escs - mixer, but remove the servos. Can I just plug in a esc and motor to the receiver? So the 3rd motor is not mixed. It is a separate channel controlled with a different speed to others. There are no servos.

The thing I don't really into of swashplates is that they are a bit hard to get the links.

Edit: I'm going away for 3 weeks.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 08:45 AM
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Yes, we've been talking 3-channel toys, not 4-channels. Yes, you can do what you outline, but it'd be re-inventing the wheel, and lacking a gyro, likely be a short-lived money hog.
Barak is spot on here: you're chewing on too much at this point. Start slow, just get an understanding of what's actually produced as complete 3-channels, THEN delve into "mix this, esc-that."

Just get a copter on order, skip the tech mumbo-jumbo for now.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 08:47 AM
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Okay, so how are you going to get it to go forward and backward without a swash, with no servos, and with only two motors? The best it will be able to do is constant forward (by fixing the rotor planes at a forward angle), spin left/right, lean left/right, and raise and lower altitude. It's not possible to make a helicopter go forward and back on two motors without a swash or servos. You could do it with just servos by having it shift a weight to lean it, but if you're going to have it do that, why not have the same servos lean a swash? On the scale of rotor blades that you were talking about using, not being able to stop the thing or reverse is going to be extremely dangerous.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 09:10 AM
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This is exactly what I mean.

Tear into somebody because you see it as justified. You the cop here?

Nothing NEW for you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors edge 29 View Post
So another blasting tonight.

Barak, even though you don't come out and say "curse words" you still insult people by saying things like, "If we were in person I'd talk real slowly to make sure you got it" or "grift people for donations, or to try and improve my self esteem.". I am not saying that what other members, much like I have in the past, have a right to curse at you or anyone else, and yes swearing/cursing should be avoided but what you post is not any better, and could be considered even more demeaning in regards to how you obviously use a more linguistic approach to insulting others, vs. just out right using base profanity and curse words.

Now, you and me have had our battles on here, and I much like you, can enjoy an argument as much as the next guy. But when you use the word "maturity and how others need to use like, your insinuating that you're in turn using maturity. Well, I am obligated to point out, that if you're reply to others insults with more insults, then, well, this really isn't being mature is it?

I know you dont care what others thing, and quite frankly neither do I, but lets just all just have a good time and keep this thread clean. No member on here really wants to waste time reading through an argument.
How about 6-channel? Does that count?

I engineered and CNC'd my own DTS for my


BeltCP.



I then drew up a lightened version.


not exactly stock.
Threw this copter away- I don't like outdoor flying that much, and it was a money-hog, first-order. Yes, it was more copter than I could deal with, still is.
I never said I KNOW anything, "IMHO" in my posts is for YOU.
Don't call me Hero, and then dispute the fact.
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Last edited by killbucket; Jun 29, 2010 at 09:12 AM. Reason: shouldn't you be doing your JOB today?
Old Jun 29, 2010, 09:17 AM
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So basically you couldn't fly it and threw it out.

Sorry KB, but no one that's moved up to a CP helicopter will believe you saying that you went from flying a 300 size helicopter (not crashing and rebuilding because you can't fly it) to flying 3 channel helicopters because they fly better. It's not that it's an "outdoor helicopter" or that you "don't like flying outdoors". It's that you didn't have the patience to learn to fly a CP helicopter. End of story.

Face up to reality.

Btw, if you think this is tearing into someone, perhaps you should get a thicker skin? I've actually tried to be nice to the OP and yourself, especially considering the fact that this is a "dreaming" thread and has no basis in reality.

Perhaps you shouldn't throw stones if you're going to live in a glass house?
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barak1001 View Post
-ka-snippo-

KB who made you able to answer a question on anything that flies with 4 channels? Last time I checked the closest you've come to a 4 channel helicopter is a demo of an MCX for 4 minutes in a hobby shop. I'm not being a "bully". I'm being realistic.

I haven't seen you mention to the OP that you have no real experience on anything over 3 channels. Stop trying to pass yourself off as expert and be honest with the kid.
Do you read beyond your search for truth? Post#27 here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by killbucket View Post
-ka-snip-
Coaxialnewbie, I am still learning about copters too, and sometimes don't get it right the first time. But I would like to offer whatever constructive assistance I can to your project.
It would be an honor to help.
I can make most any part you might need, outside of outright carving blades...and I know the MACHINE can do it, I just ain't learned yet.


It's been on one of the usual hunts for "The guy who said all coaxials are toys".
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 09:30 AM
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Off topic post removed.
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Last edited by Barak1001; Jul 07, 2010 at 04:16 PM.
Old Jun 29, 2010, 09:32 AM
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Act accordingly.

"...other than offer to CNC parts'.

ROFL.
I answered the kid's question directly, and with-held criticism.

Has ANYBODY here realized that:

I like to make stuff, and I have all of my time FREE.
I don't have to make a dime on a part I make for somebody, unless I want to.
I've been on this forum four months, and a few members have burned any chance of ever getting a paid item made.
A few others could get an entire 'something or other', merely for the asking.
You know who you are.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 09:33 AM
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Wow, you're going to make free parts for people and I can't have any??? Man I feel so left out.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 09:41 AM
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Ah, back on topic.
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Old Jun 29, 2010, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barak1001 View Post
-snip- I'm about as close as you can come to an "expert" on coaxials.
-snip-
I yield the floor.
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Last edited by killbucket; Jun 29, 2010 at 09:45 PM.
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