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Old Aug 31, 2011, 10:27 PM
I feel the need...
Azn_Ace's Avatar
Orange County
Joined Feb 2011
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The allure of coax helis vs. CP

Just like to take a survey as to the reason why you are flying a coax heli vs. a CP (collective pitch/more realistic) heli. Is it:

1) You are a beginner
2) You want to fly indoors
3) Learning curve is too steep for CP
4) You want to fly something inexpensive
5) Other - please specify
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Old Aug 31, 2011, 10:40 PM
Vroooom putta putta putta
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Joined Feb 2011
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For myself I'd choose 4, inexpensive. However they are easier to fly, generally better indoors, and they tend to be more rugged so better for a beginner or anyone who doesn't plan to devote a chunk of change and their life to repair and replacement.
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Old Aug 31, 2011, 11:21 PM
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum!
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PRC (People's Republic of Commiefornia)
Joined Jul 2005
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I like the advanced coaxial design because it is clearly superior to the archaic tail rotor design helicopter. The advantages of the coaxial design over tail rotor helis are numerous, some of them are, superior stability, maneuverability, efficiency, compactness, higher power-to-weight ratio than old tech tail rotor helicopters, superior aerodynamic efficiency.

http://www.gyrodynehelicopters.com/coaxial_benefits.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/200712200...ews/petr11.htm

http://www.gizmag.com/coaxial-rotor-...-design/10279/
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 12:23 AM
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Charlotte Douglas, NC
Joined Sep 2003
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I look at Collective Pitch as a lot of work and strong mental focus. Now, give me a coaxial and you just have mindless fun. Look in the Micro RTF airplane forum and look at the micro video challenge thread. They do 1 airplane and 1 heli challenge. That is just good ol mindless fun.

I still like the looks of a single rotor better, but I am becoming much more of a coaxial fan now. Before I refused to even look at them, I felt they were ugly looking and could not understand why anyone would even want to fly them. However, I am much older now and my outlook on flying has changed drastically over the years and I also realized just how fun they really can be. So i guess I fall under 2, 4, and 5.
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 12:49 AM
I feel the need...
Azn_Ace's Avatar
Orange County
Joined Feb 2011
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Are there any RC coaxial heli's that can do banked turns and fast forward flight?
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 01:15 AM
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Canada
Joined Jul 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azn_Ace View Post
Are there any RC coaxial heli's that can do banked turns and fast forward flight?
I'm kinda waiting to see how this thing turns out, if it even comes to market.
http://www.walkera.com/en1/particular.jsp?pn=X2



I started with coaxials. (That's how I got hooked into RC helis and now airplanes.) I also started with single rotor, fixed pitch before I had the coaxial flying down pat. Then I got into CP helis before I got the single, FP down pat. As I got better and better with the CP helis, the coaxial became too easy and I got bored with them. I still have them and still play with them over the winter months. FP helis just couldn't do what a CP heli could do for me (handle wind and fly quite fast).
If this X2 materializes and proves to fly well, I may re-visit coaxials once more.

PS. If it can do banked turns and can fly fast, then the idea of a conventional "coaxial" may have to go out the window. By its nature and design, a conventional coaxial is simply too stable to do a banked turn or to fly fast, at least in a way that doesn't end in calamity.
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 02:50 AM
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USA, AL, Hanceville
Joined May 2008
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I moved on to collective pitch from coaxial, though it took me two and half years before I actually took the plunge and did so.

In my opinion the only valid point is point 1, I'll explain why:

1) You are a beginner - Valid reason to fly coaxial. Collective pitch does take more effort to learn.
2) You want to fly indoors - Semi valid reason, they make collective pitch choppers that are small enough to fly indoors.
3) Learning curve is too steep for CP - Not a valid reason, flying a collective pitch does take some practice and hand eye coordination, but it's not nearly as difficult as people make it out to be.
4) You want to fly something inexpensive - This point is just wrong. After two and half years of flying my coaxial I had invested over $800 in it! On the other hand after a couple of years of flying my 450 size collective pitch I've got maybe $500 in it. Coaxials are a niche market and the manufacturers charge a premium on the helicopters and parts. Collective pitch helicopters are a much larger market and parts are mass produced by a much larger collection of clone making Chinese manufacturers.

I would say that the primary reason most people don't move on to collective pitch is fear. I was scared of them myself until I finally took the plunge.
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 05:01 AM
OlliW
Joined Sep 2009
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Quote:
After two and half years of flying my coaxial I had invested over $800 in it! On the other hand after a couple of years of flying my 450 size collective pitch I've got maybe $500 in it.
LOL, that's the best joke I've ever heard...



I personally go with 1), 2) 4) and 5)

I started with a coax because it
- was 100 Eur RTF
- was 4 channel hence allowed me to get used to 4 channels yet is much easier to fly than a CP
- was a heli hence allowed me to get used to lots of the relevant mechanics and electronics yet is mechanically much easier to tune and maintain than a CP
- allowed me to fly within my own four walls whenever I wanted to in contrast to a CP

I went on to a 450 CP because
- a CP was were I wanted to go to from the beginning, because of all the coolness and cool flying capabilities

but, I certainly find a CP much more demanding, in terms of time I am investing into learning to fly it better and better, and the costs, which sometimes I feel are close to eating me up



PS: as regards the costs I observed the "law":

The costs roughly scale as the price of the lipos

I found this simple law not to work too bad. For a 34er coax and 450er CP this means
34er: 2S 800mAh 20C = ca. 8$
450er: 3S 2200mAh 30 C = ca. 20$
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 05:44 AM
Owner1
United States, WA, Seattle
Joined Mar 2011
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Interesting question. My answer would be "other".

The thing I enjoy about flying RC helicopters is seeing them fly the same way real ones do. In other words, scale flying along with scale bodies. 3D flying, or even the frenetic directional changes that CP's often perform doesn't look like a real helicopter flying, to me. It can be interesting to watch (for a short time) and I am fully impressed by the piloting abilities, but it isn't what I like in the hobby. Coaxials just have a more deliberate movement to them that seems more scale to me.

FWIW, I have a Blade CP that I can fly, but it isn't as fun to watch in flight as my Big Lama.

Owner1
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 05:54 AM
Owner1
United States, WA, Seattle
Joined Mar 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azn_Ace View Post
Are there any RC coaxial heli's that can do banked turns and fast forward flight?
Depends on what you consider "fast" I suppose. Check out the attached video of my Big Lama clearly banking and going in excess of 40mph. The first 2 minutes I'm warming up a little, so don't think that's it and quit watching. Watch at least from the 2 minute mark on.

Big Lama, Now With Extended Servo Arms and Super Short Flybar. Flying Super Fast in Light Wind (5 min 40 sec)
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 07:26 AM
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United States, NY, Fulton
Joined Aug 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owner1 View Post
Interesting question. My answer would be "other".

The thing I enjoy about flying RC helicopters is seeing them fly the same way real ones do. In other words, scale flying along with scale bodies. 3D flying, or even the frenetic directional changes that CP's often perform doesn't look like a real helicopter flying, to me. It can be interesting to watch (for a short time) and I am fully impressed by the piloting abilities, but it isn't what I like in the hobby. Coaxials just have a more deliberate movement to them that seems more scale to me.


Owner1
I agree with you 100% about just being able to do what a real helicopter does! It would probably be cool to fly upside down once in awhile, but the other 3D stuff just doesn't seem appealing.

Your Big Lama hauls ass, I didn't know they could go that fast. How much do you have invested in it, if you don't mind me asking?
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 08:02 AM
Cranky old fart
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Germantown, WI.
Joined Oct 2007
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I started with an ESky Lama V4. It taught me a lot and I miss that heli. But, I can no longer find any compelling reason to fly a coax. I've pretty well out-grown the desire to fly something indoors. I want something I can rip around the sky without worrying about running into walls. The best thing about a CP heli is not having to worry about wind. With flybarless heads and electronic stabilization systems, they are not difficult to fly and are not very mechanically complex any more.
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 08:12 AM
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USA, AL, Hanceville
Joined May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliW View Post
LOL, that's the best joke I've ever heard...
I don't see anything funny about it. I spent well over $800 on the coaxial. Brushless upgrade, new transmitter, various batteries, numerous repair parts, and various aftermarket upgrades. All so I could make it fly outside. I could have bought 4 generic clone CP helicopters for what I put into that coaxial over the time period.

Repair cost is definitely cheaper on my HK450 than it was on my coaxial. Parts are cheaper since more companies produce them AND I crash less often since I have much better control of the chopper outside.

If anything the joke is on coaxial owners that spend more than the cost of a CP helicopter trying to make their coaxial fly in a 5 mph wind!

Edit:

Your battery cost comparison is a bit flawed. You're using the cost of generic 2s 800 batteries for the coaxial battery, but you're using the cost of medium grade brand name batteries for the 450 battery?

I can pick up a 3s 2200mah 25c flightmax battery for roughly $15 shipped. Eflite 2s 800mah batteries retail for $17 a piece before shipping, and Esky 2s 800mah batteries retail for $22! That's right, the brand name coaxial batteries are more expensive than medium quality 450 batteries.
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 09:13 AM
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Zurich
Joined Apr 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azn_Ace View Post
Are there any RC coaxial heli's that can do banked turns and fast forward flight?
While not SO fast as that wild Lama shown in the above video, the much smaller [19 cm rotorspan] G.T. Model 5888s, when carefully tracked & tuned (see 5888 thread) can be made to fly, in hover-neutral trim, about 20 KPH [12 mph] or almost 25 body-lengths/sec. A Bell 206 is about 40 long, and has a top speed of 240 KPH [150 MPH], or "only" about 5.5 body-lengths/sec.

My super-tracked & trimmed 5888s can do sustained 20 banked circles and figure-8's, and tip fwd the same amount (because they are slightly nose-heavy and thus require back-trimmed swashplates to hover in stick-neutral, there is less reverse than fwd, AND, cleverly, the swashplate is nearly parallel to the body in normal fwd flt., allowing max efficiency in that mode).

Lots of fun in small spaces indoors ....


Lee
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Old Sep 01, 2011, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by xlcrlee View Post
While not SO fast as that wild Lama shown in the above video, the much smaller [19 cm rotorspan] G.T. Model 5888s, when carefully tracked & tuned (see 5888 thread) can be made to fly, in hover-neutral trim, about 20 KPH [12 mph] or almost 25 body-lengths/sec. A Bell 206 is about 40 long, and has a top speed of 240 KPH [150 MPH], or "only" about 5.5 body-lengths/sec.
Lee
Seems like you're using the same maths as top gear to say an atom V8 is twice as powerful as a Bugatti Veyron
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