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Old Mar 08, 2013, 10:50 AM
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United States, WI, Pewaukee
Joined May 2006
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Stagger,

I am wondering if Eflite offers a motor that would power this plane on 5S? I see the power 90 uses 6S. Everything I have is Eflite based, I would have to go with 2 4s in series if I went the route of Big Lacy and the 110. I am just trying to apply the KISS method here and am thinking much as I hate to, I may end up going with a Rimfire 1.20 as you did. I really like this plane on electric. I am considering converting my GP 1/3 scale Pitts to electric and am glad I found thuis thread it is VERY informational!

Thanks Guys,

Paul
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Old Mar 08, 2013, 12:03 PM
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Rem Fodder's Avatar
Canada, ON, Port Hope
Joined Apr 2012
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Hi Paul, I just recieved my kit today in the mail. Like you I wish go electric for this model. I have spent a bit of time looking at different power options that are easily available to me. If I can, going with a single stick of 5 or 6 cells would be much more preferrable than series connecting a couple of packs. The E-Flite 110 I'm sure would power this kit to the stratosphere, I'm just not keen on the 8 cell thing, and using the P-90, I have a few doubts about sufficient power. The Scorpion line looks promising, in particular the S40-25 with 14 or 16 turns of motor winding. Peak output is aorund 2000 watts on 6 cells. I still have some more research to do before I choose a power system.

When I received the kit today I had a nervous feeling about a gouge in the box, however upon inspection all was OK inside. The only negative is I will need to spend some time, actually a lot of time, taking out the wrinkles in the MonoKote. The entire model has them, and it has been a very long time since I last used a covering iron and heat gun. I susupect that this kit had been sitting in the wharehouse for a while as it was a clearance priced item. Can't complain really, the savings were enough that I can pick up a motor and still come under full list price of the basic kit.

Rem
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Old Mar 08, 2013, 01:48 PM
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Hey Rem,

I am in the same boat with this plane. I am in the discovery phase of going electric and have much to learn. Where did you get your plane? I see tower has it for the same price as last month still. I want to keep it simple as well with a single battery and really like the Eflite line since I have several of them already.

Presently I have a Hanger 9 RV8 that I installed the "electric" option on last year. However in doing so, I had to opt for the Power 52 on that model as the power 46 motor was on perma back-order at the time. That plane is powered with a 25C 5S 4000 maH Gens Ace LIPO pack. It really flies quite well at 1/2 throttle and 10 minute flights are a breeze. Nice plane.

I suppose if I have to go 6 cells, then the power 90 is the way to go. I just really like the idea of picking up several more 5 cell batteries like I already have maybe at a greater maH rating and being able to use them in the Waco or the RV8. And the latter more preferable option would require that I go whith the Rim Fire 1.20.

Paul
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Old Mar 08, 2013, 05:45 PM
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Canada, ON, Port Hope
Joined Apr 2012
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Paul, my kit came from Great Hobbies here in Canada. They had reduced the kit price to $379.00 Can. to clear it out. I was fortunate to get one of the two kits they had.

As for power options, I am relatively new to this electrification game myself. Having flown a few kits now with batteries, I just can't see myself going back to gassers, although as a purist it is hard to beat the sounds and smells of IC engines. My E-Flite Beaver has a P-32 motor in it flying on 4 cell 3300 mah packs and the power is just astonishing. I realize with this Waco kit, it will be a substantial step up for me in the size and weight department, as I have never flown anything heavier than 6 lbs. I get what you are saying in relation to trying to maximize what you already have, it just makes sense both economically and familiarity wise. Do you already have the kit or are you still in the consideration stage?

Also, have you tried using E-Calc before? It will not provide all the answers regarding your potential set up, but at least it is a start. You can plug in a multitude of different battery and motor / prop combinations. The Scorpion motor I have in mind calculates out at close to a 1:1thrust to weight ratio with a 17" x 8" prop on 5 cells, a little bit higher on the 6 cell pack. I have a while to figure things out so I'm not going to rush it, and learn as much as I can before the build starts.

Rem
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Old Mar 08, 2013, 09:04 PM
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Canada, ON, Port Hope
Joined Apr 2012
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Its been a very long time since I did any covering on a model, but for you more experienced modelers out there, what would you suggest I should do to pull out the bubbles and wrinkles on this kit? Would a hair dryer be of sufficient heat to pull the wrikles and creases out, or am I going to have to get a covering iron. I took a quick pic of the fuselage which has more than its fair share of wrinkles. Thanks.

Rem
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Old Mar 08, 2013, 11:43 PM
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United States, NM, Espanola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WI53072 View Post
Stagger,

I am wondering if Eflite offers a motor that would power this plane on 5S? I see the power 90 uses 6S. Everything I have is Eflite based, I would have to go with 2 4s in series if I went the route of Big Lacy and the 110. I am just trying to apply the KISS method here and am thinking much as I hate to, I may end up going with a Rimfire 1.20 as you did. I really like this plane on electric. I am considering converting my GP 1/3 scale Pitts to electric and am glad I found thuis thread it is VERY informational!

Thanks Guys,

Paul
Hey Paul,
I flew off a frozen Pewaukee lake for many years back in the early 90's and at Lakeland also! You wouldn't happen to know Fred Sells and Chuck Hocking by chance?
Dan
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Old Mar 08, 2013, 11:54 PM
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Dan,

I know both Fred and Chuck!! Great guys. How is NM? Better flying there then here these day's I would bet!

Rem,

I have used e-Calc it is a great source. But the experience of guys who have already done the conversion of this plane and others is in-valuable when it comes to finding out the best way to get something done. The conversion on this plane by the few that have completed it is excellent.

As for those wrinkles, I should think a film iron or a film heat gun would do the trick. You have to be careful not to burn through though and work the covering gently. I have found great success getting wrinkles out and un-warping ailerons with the heat gun and the heat resistant mitt used to gently rub the covering.

Paul
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Old Mar 09, 2013, 12:03 AM
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United States, NM, Espanola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rem Fodder View Post
Its been a very long time since I did any covering on a model, but for you more experienced modelers out there, what would you suggest I should do to pull out the bubbles and wrinkles on this kit? Would a hair dryer be of sufficient heat to pull the wrikles and creases out, or am I going to have to get a covering iron. I took a quick pic of the fuselage which has more than its fair share of wrinkles. Thanks.

Rem
Eh Rem,
Mine was just as terrible as yours
I used a heat gun and a cotton sock! Wave the gun and follow your waves with a rub of the sock to smooth it down! You will need to seal down ALL seams with an iron of some sort tho! I pull my fingers against the seams on the edges to "feel" if they need the iron and I found that ALL the edge seams needed attention!
Dan
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Old Mar 09, 2013, 08:10 AM
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Canada, ON, Port Hope
Joined Apr 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poziovahim View Post
Eh Rem,
Mine was just as terrible as yours
I used a heat gun and a cotton sock! Wave the gun and follow your waves with a rub of the sock to smooth it down! You will need to seal down ALL seams with an iron of some sort tho! I pull my fingers against the seams on the edges to "feel" if they need the iron and I found that ALL the edge seams needed attention!
Dan

Thanks to both you and Paul for your comments on fixing the wrinkly skin. By the looks of it, I would say they had a first year apprentice do the covering jobs Dan. The last time I worked MonoKote was about 28 years ago, so my memory is a little fuzzy.

Paul, yes I would agree that this thread is invaluable. If I hadn't come across this thread and read it from the beginning I wouldn't be sitting here with one in my shop . Anyway, as I stated before, this kit will go into hibernation for a while, but I will be looking forward to reading how both of your planes progress. Good luck on your builds!

Rem
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Old Mar 09, 2013, 07:19 PM
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Tama, Iowa USA
Joined Dec 2007
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Guys, I think all these kits came with wrinkled skin, as do all the ARFs I have built over the last few years. A quick hit with the iron and glove on the wood areas smooths everything out easily. I follow up on the open areas of the wings with either the iron or the gun, one bay at a time. DO NOT OVER SHRINK! use just enough heat to remove the wrinkles.

As for power, the Rimfire 1.20 on 5 cells swinging an APC 17x8e, or a Xoar 17x8e wood flies this plane fantastically. I use the Blue Lipo 5000mah 20C batteries, and get easy 8-10 min flights. I use the Castle ICE 100 ESC, but an 85amp model will work well. I've flown it on 16x8 and 16x10 props on 6 cells, but was not impressed. Also flown with 18x6 and 18x8 props on 5 cells, which is ok, but best performance is with the 17 incher. It was also flown with a 17x10, but lacked vertical with it. I rarely use full throttle, usually 3/4 or less. This is by far my favorite aircraft in my hanger of 6 large scale planes. All electric.
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Old Mar 10, 2013, 12:25 AM
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United States, WI, Pewaukee
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Stagger,

Thanks for the info regarding the Waco. I am really intrigued with going electric on this plane and converting a couple others. This is an excellent thread!

Paul
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Old Mar 10, 2013, 07:05 PM
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Canada, ON, Port Hope
Joined Apr 2012
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[QUOTE=Staggerflyer;24374915]Guys, I think all these kits came with wrinkled skin, as do all the ARFs I have built over the last few years. A quick hit with the iron and glove on the wood areas smooths everything out easily. I follow up on the open areas of the wings with either the iron or the gun, one bay at a time. DO NOT OVER SHRINK! use just enough heat to remove the wrinkles.

I feel like such a boob! If had taken the time to open and read the instruction manual before posting for help I would have seen the little insert about tightening up the covering..........As Homer Simpson would say "Doh!". Guess I will be adding a covering iron to my inventory list for this kit.

Thanks for the info on the Rimfire 1.20 (I always think .22 cal bullets when I see that motor name) and the different prop performances. Just doing a quick comparison of the 1.20 motor and the Scorpion S-4025-12, they are both comparable. The Scorpion S-4025-12 is a 440 kv motor, but they also produce two slower kv motors down to 330 kv. In your opinion Stagger, would going with the slower motor and larger prop dia be of any benefit? Every time I run the motor calc, the 17x8 prop seems to come out the winner, and the slower Scorpion could handle the 18x8 prop too. Thanks.

Rem
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Old Mar 10, 2013, 09:22 PM
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Tama, Iowa USA
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Rem,

I have the Scorpion 4025-12 in my BH .90 size P-40C Warhawk, spinning an APC 15.75x13x3 blade prop, on 5 cells, with a Castle ICE 100 ESC. (My first one, of five now.) The readings off the ICE onboard logger, show;
"With the 3 blade prop it pulls right at 85 watts max, according to the logger built into the ICE ESC, which is what the specs call for max continuious for the motor. First flight a little over 9.5 minutes from jumper power on to off, max watts pulled 1447, max amps pulled 85 for one instant, average thru high power manuevers was 83 amps, RPM high was 6086 on high speed pass, RPM average at 3/4 throttle cruise was mid to high 4000. Avg voltage for flight was 19.2 volts, max low volts on high rpm, high servo use manuevers was 16.5v, with 18.5 volts at landing."

Now remember, this is in a P-40C, 9lbs 2oz AUW, with retracts. A high speed warbird uses power differently than a high drag biplane. With many years of flying the big ones behind me, experimenting a lot, I've learned that power plants and props perform much differently in different type models. And electric is a whole different ball game. Forget EVERYTHING you know about nitro/gas power when using electric. With electric you have FULL torque IMMEDIATELY!! NO HESITATION! You will have to relearn your throttle manipulation. Also, you rarely use full throttle. IT's just not needed, unless you greatly underpower your model. With electric, if you use a compareable motor, you are installing a VERY HIGH POWER 2 stroke, but with infinitely more torque. You have the torque of the next 2 sizes up 4 stroke.

Will the Scorpion work in the Waco? Sure it will, but as you are finding with the calc program, you will be spinning a bigger prop. Now, the thing with props, bigger means slower rpm. IT also means more draw with electric. So, what you do is take a preflight draw check using an inline power meter. (You do have one, don't you??? Or access to one from a friend at the field?) This is a MUST HAVE in every electric flyer's field box. A couple different props, in different diameters and pitches is always a good idea. You MUST match your BATTERY cell # to your prop! Do a quick full power ground pull with the draw meter in place to see what your AMPS are. USE a tie down or a helper, because you are going to be reading the meter in real time. This will usually require that the battery hatch, or cowl, depending on your wiring setup, is off. You need to make sure you DO NOT go over the MAX AMP DRAW rating for the motor, ESC, and battery. If you do have more draw, you must either go to a smaller prop, or drop one cell from the battery. The Waco is a medium slow speed, mid high drag plane, requireing larger diameter/pitch prop for acceleration/power pull, not high speed. With this model, different prop sizes/pitches produce readily noticeable performance differences. I am using 5 cells on most of my applications where all of you are wanting to use 6 cells. The reason is simple, to much draw with the 17-18 inch props. I keep my CONTINUOUS DRAW at or below the rating to extend the life of my motor/ESC/batteries. I see others in my club going through all three on regular basis because they run over that draw rating, because they "don't want to spend the money for another battery or prop." So, instead, they burn up their planes, throwing what they have spent away. Here's the thing, those calculators do their best to get you "in the ballpark" with your system. Final setups are found with real world flight testing.

The Waco is listed as a .90 2 stroke/1.20 4stroke sized plane. The Scorpion is a .90 sized 2 stroke equivilant motor. The Rimfire 1.20 is a 1.20 2 stroke equivilant motor. Therefor, it is overpowered with it. Thus, 1/2 throttle in most of the flight. Oh, and anyone looking at the E-Flite motors, especially the big ones, 110 and 160, these are way UNDER rated. The 110 on 8 cells is the equivilant of a very powerful 150-160 2 stroke, while the 160 is at least as powerful as a 2.0 2 stroke. Yes, I have both. My 160 on 10cells pulls my 23 1/2 lb Top Flight Staggerwing STRAIGHT UP until I pull the throttle back. And has been radared at 95 mph, straight and level, no dive to reading. That's swinging a 20x10 nitro wood prop. My 110 is in the GP P-6E Hawk, on 8 cells, spinning a Mezjlek 18x10x3 prop. It NEVER sees full throttle. 1/3 to 1/2 only, 3/4 on vertical pulls. I am planning on installing another Rimfire 120 in this one.

One thing all of you who haven't flown this plane yet will find out... While it is a high drag, medium/slow speed flier, it does NOT slow down on landing, ESPECIALLY with electric. No prop airbrake, as you have with a nitro/gas motor! Landing approaches MUST be long and flat. If you are used to steep approaches with your nitro planes, you WILL NOT get this one down, unless you runway is 400-500 ft long! At least not with out some BIG bounces. I still don't have my landings perfected, and I usually spend 2-3 flights an outing just doing touch and goes. But I love this plane!

Sorry for making this a small book. Hope I covered most of the stuff you guys wanted. Good luck all.

Don

One thing I forgot to mention when figuring your max draw. What you see on your meter is what you will get from throttle up on takeoff, till you get near flying speed. This occurs for less than 2 seconds, well within your safe zone. The ONLY other time you MAY see MAX draw is when doing very steep vertical climbs, maintaining throttle after most of your speed has bled off. Or attempting 3D. In NORMAL sport flying, you never see max draw, nor do you see it for anywhere near the time limits given in the ratings. Using a good logger, such as Eagle Tree, or the Castle ICE series, with built in loggers (Why I like them,) is invaluable in seeing what your models power system is doing. Info you will NEVER get on the ground. And with the bigger systems, because of cost, it is info you really want to keep track of.
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Old Mar 10, 2013, 11:47 PM
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Stagger,

Excellent post! How heavy of a plane is your P-6E Hawk? I am wondering if it is close to my Great Planes Pitts Special in terms of weight/size? I would like to convert that plane to electric if feasible.

I think the Rimfire 1.20 you are using on the Waco is the way to go using the 5S setup and the 17 inch prop. I liked the way the plane flew in your videos, nice and relaxed for 8 to 10 minutes per flight. That is perfect for my flying preferences.

Paul
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Old Mar 11, 2013, 08:15 AM
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Tama, Iowa USA
Joined Dec 2007
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Paul,

Hi, the Hawk is nearly identical to the Waco. It was rereleased at the same time the Waco was released. (Looks like it has since been discontinued again.) Hopefully, a few fixes that were found necessary from the first release were incorporated in the rerelease. When I built mine, the Rimfires weren't well known, yet. Mine weighs 14.75 lbs auw.
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