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Old Apr 08, 2009, 01:19 PM
the next Sean Tucker
Sackatomatoes, CA
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Herr Gee Bee

Would it be insane to try to make this an electric rc?

http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmar...107.html?E+Sig
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Old Apr 08, 2009, 03:03 PM
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Albuquerque, NM USA
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Actually would probably fly OK. Dumas has a whole series at 24" that convert and fly well. McKellar's Z is 28" and flies well.

charlie
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Old Apr 10, 2009, 03:38 PM
...design-build-fly-publish...
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Given that the Gee Bee was insane from the start I don't know why you're wondering!!
Give it a go... think of the respect when it does!
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Old Apr 10, 2009, 05:16 PM
Light and floaty does it
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I have that kit and keep thinking "not yet".
The full size aeroplane was mostly (heavy) engine, so don't be frightened to use a fair size motor to help get the CG forward. I was vaguely thinking about a 400XT on 2S with a 9x7.5 HD prop. About 50 watts, which should be about right for this, and you can get away with a 700 mA/h battery.
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Old Apr 10, 2009, 08:56 PM
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Don't be afraid of the Z, R-1 or R-2 versions. Yeah, a big fuse, but, they flew very well. And, several folks have proven that the R's fly very well at almost every size of model. THey aren't slow fliers, but, they don't usually have any bad habits.

Remember, the full size ones were wonderful flying planes. Very fast, but, easy to handle.

charlie
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Old Apr 10, 2009, 09:03 PM
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Yeah that big fuse scared me, but only because I'd sheet it. Gotta look right.
Coincidentally, I was just looking at this plane, their Ryan ST, and a few others yesterday at the LHS. Came very close to picking up the GeeBee.
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Old Apr 13, 2009, 08:22 AM
I eat glue
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The Herr GeeBee was a good FF rubber flyer too.
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Old Sep 05, 2009, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFLYR
Yeah that big fuse scared me, but only because I'd sheet it. Gotta look right.
Coincidentally, I was just looking at this plane, their Ryan ST, and a few others yesterday at the LHS. Came very close to picking up the GeeBee.
Hillarious. I searched for Herr Gee Bee and this came up. I completely forgot about my post. I guess I must have been looking at this kit for a while.
...and yes, I am planning on sheeting part of it, like the real one. I still have some really light 1/32" sheeting that was used on my last project.

Well anyways, I must be out of my mind for starting this project, but we'll see how it goes. I have some inspiration from my heavy Sterling 28" Peashooter and Dumas 16" that have both flown, and are still around in one piece.
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Old Sep 05, 2009, 10:45 PM
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The model should to be built very light to be manageable. The weight of a 400XT motor would help with the cg. The battery pack will need to be flat against the firewall or, if mounted horizontally, it should protrude through the firewall to the front of the cowl. ESC and radio gear should be light and as far forward as possible.Motor should have right and down thrust to control torque, P-factor, and pitch-up with full throttle. Model will tend to ground loop during takeoffs and landings requiring prop-blast over tail feathers and much practice using throttle, rudder and elevator. Model will need to land with some power on and use of up-elevator during roll-out to keep tail wheel on the ground. It should fly much like a same-size P-26 or WWII fighter. Will need to take off and land on smooth paved surface. Good luck.
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Old Sep 06, 2009, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by E-Challenged
The model should to be built very light to be manageable. The weight of a 400XT motor would help with the cg. The battery pack will need to be flat against the firewall or, if mounted horizontally, it should protrude through the firewall to the front of the cowl. ESC and radio gear should be light and as far forward as possible.Motor should have right and down thrust to control torque, P-factor, and pitch-up with full throttle. Model will tend to ground loop during takeoffs and landings requiring prop-blast over tail feathers and much practice using throttle, rudder and elevator. Model will need to land with some power on and use of up-elevator during roll-out to keep tail wheel on the ground. It should fly much like a same-size P-26 or WWII fighter. Will need to take off and land on smooth paved surface. Good luck.
Pretty much what I did with the Peashooter. The battery darn near rubs against the motor.
As for landing: Model will land into the tall weeds.

I've been looking at full scale photos, but haven't found original engineering drawings. From the best I can tell, the fuse is ply covered from the cowl to about 3/4 of the wing chord, or basically the aileron hinge line. From there, it is ply covered only from a bit above the horizontal stabilizer line, going upward. The rest is covered open structure, possibly fabric. The rudder looks to be ply, but I won't sheet anything that far rearward, even if it lessens scale looks.

If I sheet the areas that appear to be ply on the full scale plane, then it shouldn't be that bad. The Herr kit has fewer spars than scale, on the areas that will be covered. I may add very light contest grade sparring between the existing spars on the non sheeted areas, for a better look. I wanted to use them for the entire fuse build, but then my heavy handed covering job would probably break them.
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Old Sep 06, 2009, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by portablevcb

Remember, the full size ones were wonderful flying planes. Very fast, but, easy to handle.

charlie
What!!!!

Delmar Benjamin told me face to face that he never takes his hand off the control stick. He said the one time he experimented flying hands off, within seconds the stick oscillations became very violent. Any longer and the plane would have eaten itself. Now keep in mind that his GB is a modern recreation with a much more forward CG than the originals flew at. So if his was that bad I can only imagine the originals.

I think it was Roscoe Turner or one of those guys that said after he won the Thompson that he would never fly a GB again.

I know there have been some recent pushes to dispel the myths of the GBs but come on, they might have been "Flyable"..... but they were nowhere near "Wonderful".

Which also begs the question.... What do the flight characteristics the little Herr rubber "facsimile" have anything to do with the full size??? Other than general outline shape there is El'Zilcho in common.

Mike
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Old Sep 06, 2009, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CryHavoc
What!!!!

Delmar Benjamin told me face to face that he never takes his hand off the control stick. He said the one time he experimented flying hands off, within seconds the stick oscillations became very violent. Any longer and the plane would have eaten itself. Now keep in mind that his GB is a modern recreation with a much more forward CG than the originals flew at. So if his was that bad I can only imagine the originals.

I think it was Roscoe Turner or one of those guys that said after he won the Thompson that he would never fly a GB again.

I know there have been some recent pushes to dispel the myths of the GBs but come on, they might have been "Flyable"..... but they were nowhere near "Wonderful".

Which also begs the question.... What do the flight characteristics the little Herr rubber "facsimile" have anything to do with the full size??? Other than general outline shape there is El'Zilcho in common.
Mike
Charlie said it was easy to handle, he didn't say it was a good, easy trainer. Seems a bit of a misquote.
Slow down on them y'all now.
As for "What!!!!", well no comment....

Quoting Charlie directly, they were fast and easy to handle. Key word, HANDLE. That was due to designing them as a HANDLING plane. From a racer's perspective, they were wonderful, if you wanted to win, and they did. Handling planes are not necessarily stable, with hands off flying.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver.../geebeer2.html
From the above link:
"Engineers and pilots have notably always differed in opinion on the amount of stability fast airplanes should have. Engineers favor a lot of stability, maintaining that the less that a pilot has to control the airplane, the less drag will be created by the control surface and trim system displacement. Pilots on the other hand want a highly responsive airplane, even if that means cutting stability margins to the minimum. Granville and Miller decided to side with the pilots, knowing that a very sensitive airplane would result. They expected to gain performance by cutting down things such as tail volume to a bare minimum and depending on the pilots skill to make up for any handling shortcomings. This was perfect rational for a high performance racing plane. "

I don't know how Delmar built his replica, but as for the original, I would see it difficult to eat itslef.
From the above link:
"The R-1 and R-2 were very soundly constructed aircraft. The structures were stress analyzed by Pete Miller, he stressed the entire aircraft for 12 Gs positive. After extensive research and testing the R-1 and R-2 were built."

Scale models bear flying characteristics in common with the full size planes. There are differences too, but the El'Zilcho in common analogy is not what I hear from pilots who have flown both the full size and scale counterparts. I know you fly in a UAV, but there's more to it than that. You would have to have flown numerous full size and scale counterparts to make that statement. That would be nearly impossible, since many of the scale planes we model are very low in full scale flying numbers, or even non-existent.
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Old Sep 06, 2009, 11:29 AM
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Delamar's paperback book on his Gee Bee has some nice cutaway drawings showing structural details. I would caution against trying to make a scale-like planked model out of the small 24" w/s Herr kit if the objective is a nice flying model. The weight of the glue, filler and balsa planking in additon to typical power system and radio gear can lead to a hard-to-fly-short-lived model that tends to "fall out of the air" mysteriously.Consider enlarging the plans and parts sheets to something like 36" w/s for a model that looks scale and flies well.
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Old Sep 06, 2009, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Challenged
Delamar's paperback book on his Gee Bee has some nice cutaway drawings showing structural details. I would caution against trying to make a scale-like planked model out of the small 24" w/s Herr kit if the objective is a nice flying model. The weight of the glue, filler and balsa planking in additon to typical power system and radio gear can lead to a hard-to-fly-short-lived model that tends to "fall out of the air" mysteriously.Consider enlarging the plans and parts sheets to something like 36" w/s for a model that looks scale and flies well.
Please don't take this as an insult, but you know I've done a large number of scale models, and pretty much know what I will end up with, given the build methods used. That is key, because without that, a builder had better follow the advice of an experienced builder like yourself, or build to an exact known good spec. If I hadn't built and flown 2 small Peashooters, along with other small planes with rearward cg tendencies, then the advice would be paramount. In fact, all of your advice is exactly the things I tell first time builders of these planes. You and I know both that there are many here who attempt these builds with little or no prior experience as to what they may end up with. When I see folks mounting servos halfway rearward in the fuse, when there is no reason they can't move them forward, then I basically give up on the build. I decide what scale sacrifices I want in a model, but beyond that I have learned that there is no sacrifice with component placement, when there is still open forward room where it could have been mounted.

The sheeting is really not much added weight. The area I plan on sheeting, with glue, will probably be around 7 grams at the high end of estimation. This sheeting I have on hand is light. Also, a large part of the area will be centered over the cg. On the other hand, I almost feel like we are cheating, when we have the weight advantage of modern lipos and other gear. Folks used to build these with nimh and 7gm servos. It's really nice to shave weight on those items, to use on scale looks.

As for weight in general, you know I'm kindof a rebel here when it comes to that issue. My general school of thought is that planes can fly well and even reasonably slow, at much higher weights than generally recommended. I've proven it with a number of models. The reason this idea is not popular is that it is easy to get a light plane flying reasonably well. As the plane gets heavier, all the settings become more critical. The difference between the "that's too heavy" types and myself, is that I've had the perserverence to get the planes flying.

I agree it would be nice if the model was larger, but I have had success with planes such as my 14oz Guillows 25.75" FW190. It actually flew RET, and is really nice now with REAT. I do not plan to end up at 14oz AUW on this one however.
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Old Sep 06, 2009, 01:00 PM
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It is hard to know, without knowing a poster personally, what level of experience they have with making small rubber free flight model conversions fly well. I have repeatedly violated my own and other's advice about overbuilding models and having disappointing performance. I too have been irritated by elementary advice from know-it-alls even from those who really do know it all. Will be interested in your Gee Bee build and hope it is a complete success.
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