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Old Oct 17, 2014, 06:29 PM
BVH
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OK, that makes sense to me now. The only disappointment is that a battery balance connector must be used. I'm usually dealing with large AH and 9 to 10 cell Lipos or LiFeP04's and bought the 4010 to augment my DPL8 because it is more flexible when it comes to the requirement to use a balance connector. Is there any way to defeat "the system".
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Old Oct 17, 2014, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BVH View Post
OK, that makes sense to me now. The only disappointment is that a battery balance connector must be used. I'm usually dealing with large AH and 9 to 10 cell Lipos or LiFeP04's and bought the 4010 to augment my DPL8 because it is more flexible when it comes to the requirement to use a balance connector. Is there any way to defeat "the system".
The DPL8 will charge 8s A123/LiFe non-balanced.
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Old Oct 17, 2014, 07:06 PM
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I said to connect the balance lead because it's good practice I don't know if it's actually *required*.

If you really want to discharge without a balance lead, you could *try* it with a LiPo profile. But since LiPo stuff typically wants to do things based on per-cell voltages, I'm expecting you'll have issues.

I'd try setting a NiMH or NiCd profile for regenerative discharging. That way you should be able to set a target *pack* voltage (rather than per-cell voltage), and the charger won't be expecting to have a balance lead connected.

This is obviously a bit risky, if your packs don't have well-matched cells, and you discharged too low. You could take a cell(s) to a lower voltage than you expected. But that's kind of obvious if you're not using a balance lead.

You have me curious- do your packs not even have balance leads? How do you charge them? The charger doesn't have to actively balance while discharging, I believe you can enable/disable that. It does still seem to me like a good thing to let the charger at least monitor each cell's voltage. But I'd expect that using NiMH/NiCd mode would let you get around that, for discharging.

I'm pretty sure you can also do non-balanced LiPo charges, but I've never tried. Obviously, never *charge* a lithium pack using NiMH/NiCd mode. Always use a lithium mode, even if charging without a balance lead. And set the cell-count manually.

If you charge a lithium battery using a nickel-chemistry mode, the charger will keep charging, looking for a small voltage dip, which will never happen with a lithium battery. So it will continue charging until something bad happens.
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Old Oct 17, 2014, 11:44 PM
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The one 10S/10Ah pack I fuss over is the one on my now obsolete Electric Motion Systems ebike. I've posted about it before here, not sure where. I use the charger that came with it to charge it because it also provides a 5 volt signal to activate the bikes controller. The controller MUST accumulate "counts" as the battery is charging and it must accumulate negative "counts" as the bike is ridden and the battery is discharged. I believe the design was to prohibit additional battery capacity from being paralleled in for longer range - exactly what I am trying to do. I think it might also have been a method for accessing the condition of the battery - input counts would tend to end up higher than discharge counts as significant capacity was lost. I just rebuilt this pack with new pouch cells so I know they are in good condition. I am trying to defeat this control so need to be able to discharge quicker than hopping on the bike and going for a 2 hour ride. There is no EASY way to tap into the balance taps to make my own harness. I CAN be done but until I know whether or not I can beat the system, I don't feel like making the harness. I know now that I cannot add 5 Ah. 5 seconds after engaging the throttle after having charged the increased cap batts, the controller errored out. So now I want to try 4, then 3, 2 and 1 additional Ah. All of this type of activity is "fun" for me and I am ultra careful with my very expensive battery packs.
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Old Oct 18, 2014, 08:09 AM
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I found an older post of yours about this system. Interesting stuff.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2089649

I'm sure this "count" system is there for a good reason, and is well-intentioned. But it sure sounds restrictive if you want to do anything with the batteries.

How does setting up discharging via the 4010Duo help? Will you discharge it while keeping the process "visible" to the battery monitoring system (discharging with the controller powered on, perhaps), so it can accumulate negative "counts", keeping the system happy?

Why do you think the controller errors out with the extra capacity added? If your added capacity is in parallel with the original packs, and all flowing through the controller/BMS, shouldn't the only difference (between a 5Ah pack and a 10Ah pack) be a smaller voltage drop under a load?

If you can add new cells, it would seem that there is at least the opportunity to wire in a "conventional" balance lead to the cells, even just for peace of mind, so you can easily plug into the pack and check per-cell voltages. Even if you still want/need to let the BMS handle all charging.

Sorry, not trying to veer this thread OT.
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Old Oct 18, 2014, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by x5heli View Post
Got it from buddyrc, guys I just received 406duo doesn't have screen protector and nothing more. No unprotected surface was scratched so I suspect yours suffered extraordinary shipping damage. Case look used have mark like tape glue ?? Also no serial number ...No seal box. Should i return it
Based on your username, good heli choice, I'm very happy with mine

I'm a little confused by your post ("...so I suspect yours suffered...", it feels like I missed part of a conversation?). But it sounds like yours arrived in bad shape?

I looked at my 308Duo box from last year. It had 2 pieces of foam, and I think the charger was inside a bag, within the box. The box doesn't have tape on it, but I don't remember if it may have been shrink-wrapped.

Mine does have a screen protector, when I look closely. None of them have serial numbers written on those stickers, the SN is shown on the screen when it boots up.
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Old Oct 18, 2014, 12:45 PM
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It seems the issue lies with the mix of browser and windows versions. I too use W64 and Firefox as my browser. When installing java via a 32 bit browser then the 32 bit version of Java is installed. I also manually downloaded and installed the 64 bit version of Java to match the 64 bit version of data explorer and that fixed the exception error.
The problem now is when selecting the Duo308 as a device from data explorer it fails as it expects a serial connection and fails to recognise the USB virtual com port. In the owners manual it shows it is possible to select USB or serial as the transfer method but offers no information on how to connect using the serial method. I tried connecting via the servo testing port into a FTDI USB-serial converter with no success. So I am stuck without a clear view ahead. which is a pity because the data explorer software looks a lot more user friendly than logview which when you select English as the language still has remnants of the original German once you get beyond the menu system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chewytm View Post
Hi, I just installed it and tried to run the 64-bit Windows version, but it says "A Java exception has occurred" and quit.

Any ideas how to fix that? I am using Win7 Pro 64-bit.

chewy
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Old Oct 18, 2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RedOctobyr View Post
How does setting up discharging via the 4010Duo help?
I should have mentioned that once the controller errors out, there is no way to reset the system to allow use (discharge) of either the battery I'm writing about or the front wheel battery (Battery "A"). IIRC (it's been a while) I have to discharge the lithium battery (Battery "B") down to somewhere around where the controller would automatically initiate LVC under normal conditions - which is around 3.5 or 3.6 VPC under load. (IIRC, The main controller does not need to monitor this discharge) Then I think I can reset the controller and regain normal operation.

This past attempt to add the 5 AH pack was done with wiring the second pack directly to the main pack terminals on the controller board. This way, as the pack charged, the controller saw all the counts associated with charging both batteries (one bigger pack).

I will next try to add only 1 additional Ah and see what happens. If that works, then 2 Ah and so, on. Based on my blinking tri-color led fuel guage located directly on the battery cover, I think I should be able to get some amount of additional capacity hooked in. I think the controller is programmed with an absolute maximum count number that hopefully, has a little bit of allowable "over-counts" relative to the stock 10 Ah pack.

Even if I am not successful, I have had lots of fun trying to solve my issue/beat the system.
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Old Oct 19, 2014, 04:56 AM
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I received a reply from Winfreid the author of DataExplorer on how to connect the 308Duo. Here's his reply
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Rob,
all what you have written is correct. The Java runtime must match the bit width of the DataExplorer version. For graphical representation as well as for serial connection native libraries get used and this depends on the bit width. But on a 64 bit system it is possible to install 32 and 64 bit Java runtime in parallel. Only thing you need to care for is that the 32 bit DataExplorer find the 32 bit Java and vice versa. At the download page of DataExplorer you should find the following sentence:
This is a Java based application. It is more important which Java run-time, in respect of architecture (32/64 bit) is installed, compared to the operating system architecture.
May be I should highlight this or find a new better understandable wording?

For the iCharger 308 (DUO) I am not aware which USB chip set get used. As far as I understand this device is using the USB transfer directly. It does not use a serial COM port connection! Junsi does not provide me the specification for this, so I do not support live data gathering with DataExplorer with this device. But you can import data directly from the internal mini SD card. This is faster and you do not need to run the PC in parallel of the long term charging process. If you connect the USB cable the SD card should be get recognized as a new storage drive. DataExplorer will store the location internally, so you do not need to go through the selections all the time. But this depends on the configuration you have done.

I personally like iChargers since they store live data in log files which can be downloaded after charging the batteries. So you do not need to run the computer all the time in parallel. The disadvantage is I need an extra power supply. Anyhow I am using a Graupner UDP 60 which is able to manage batteries charge/discharge program via my DataExplorer.

I hope this helps at least a bit to get rid of your problems.

with regards
Winfried
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by chewytm View Post
Hi, I just installed it and tried to run the 64-bit Windows version, but it says "A Java exception has occurred" and quit.

Any ideas how to fix that? I am using Win7 Pro 64-bit.

chewy
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