Thread Tools
Old Dec 13, 2015, 11:17 PM
Wa7sh is offline
Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Registered User
Joined Sep 2011
174 Posts
Discussion
Copper wire damaged, Sensor wire which?

hi

While i was drilling the stator for space to place hall sensors in my rim fire 150kv motor i accidentally went too far and shredded 3 wires.

i did not try to run the motor, but do i need to rewind or its fine?

I have a tekin 1900kv motor and i need to know the arrangement of the sensor wires.

the sensor wires arrangement are the same between inrunner motors right?

thank you
Wa7sh is offline Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Dec 15, 2015, 07:49 AM
jackerbes is offline
Find More Posts by jackerbes
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
19,564 Posts
Which motor would it be? I don't see a 150 Kv motor in the Rimfire line.

http://www.electrifly.com/motors/gpmg4505.html

Telling us the number of stator arms and magnets and whether or not there is a Wye bundle would help refine the question too.

Jack
jackerbes is offline Find More Posts by jackerbes
Last edited by jackerbes; Dec 15, 2015 at 07:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 15, 2015, 03:57 PM
Ron van Sommeren is offline
Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
Netherlands, GE, Nijmegen
Joined Feb 2001
13,597 Posts
Pictures of the damage?

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
Ron van Sommeren is offline Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 15, 2015, 08:32 PM
Piece is offline
Find More Posts by Piece
Wake up, feel pulse, be happy!
Piece's Avatar
United States, MN, Minneapolis
Joined Aug 2009
13,368 Posts
Well, drilling into any windings means you have to rewind it unless you're only planning to use a fraction of the motor's potential. On the bright side, rewinding will improve it over stock and allows Kv manipulation.

Hall sensors... Surface vehicle application?
Piece is offline Find More Posts by Piece
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2015, 03:47 AM
Wa7sh is offline
Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Registered User
Joined Sep 2011
174 Posts
Sorry for the late replay

Okay it was rimfire 160kv***

There is more than 3 wires....



What about the sensor
wire arrangement 5+, Ground, A, B, C, temp?
Wa7sh is offline Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2015, 07:38 AM
jackerbes is offline
Find More Posts by jackerbes
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
19,564 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wa7sh View Post
Sorry for the late replay

Okay it was rimfire 160kv***

There is more than 3 wires....



What about the sensor
wire arrangement 5+, Ground, A, B, C, temp?
These motors do not have sensors in them, there are three bundles of strands, each bundle makes one phase of the motor. If you have a DMM you can check to see if the strands are shorted to each other and/or the stator. If they are shorted the motor needs to be rewound if you want to save it.

You can do some simple checks of the windings with a cheap digital multimeter (DMM).

With a DMM set to R x 1 you should see the same low resistance on all three connector pairs (1-2, 1-3, 2-3). It should be a low value, usually a few Ohms or even a fraction of an Ohm, and it should be steady and not flickering. That will tell you that you have continuity and separation on all three phases. If all three are about the same and have steady readings the windings are intact from the bullet connectors and through the windings.

A second check would be to check for a shorted winding. If the motor is a CD-ROM style motor or the magnet housing is off, find two spots on the on the stator where you can get continuity between the two probes. The ends of the stator arms (where the magnets pass by them) are usually a good spot and you might have to scratch through a coating.

When you have continuity on the two probes, remove one of the probesand touch each of the three motor connectors. The meter should read open from the stator to all three connectors. If there is any flickering or steady resistance values seen, you have a winding that is shorted to the stator.

When you want to post images click on the Go Advanced button below the Message box and upload your image to the servers here. That will preserve it better and forever.

Jack
jackerbes is offline Find More Posts by jackerbes
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2015, 02:22 PM
Ron van Sommeren is offline
Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
Netherlands, GE, Nijmegen
Joined Feb 2001
13,597 Posts
How many wires are there in one strand of multi-wire?

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
Ron van Sommeren is offline Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 21, 2015, 04:29 AM
Wa7sh is offline
Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Registered User
Joined Sep 2011
174 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron van Sommeren View Post
How many wires are there in one strand of multi-wire?

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
You mean the 3 yellow, black, and red wires how much copper wire in them?

The motor is shorted I tried it, it was just shivering.
Wa7sh is offline Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 21, 2015, 07:43 AM
jackerbes is offline
Find More Posts by jackerbes
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
19,564 Posts
It it does not start and run on one or two clicks of throttle don't try for too long or with more throttle or you can damage an ESC also.

It looks like a rewind will have to be used to save it. But it is a big motor of decent quality and it it certainly worth the trouble to do it. That is a 12N14P motor and it has a dLRK wind on it now, if you want to get a feel for what you need to do to get the stator off of the bearing tube and see what the winding will involve these threads will help you.

How to repair an electric motor. - www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1079423

Outrunner Disassembly and Stripping - Gimbal Motor Rewind - www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1823636

Try to count the number of turns on an arm as you remove the old windings. Getting a count from one or two arms will help with deciding what you need to put back to have the same Kv rating.

Are the windings heavily saturated with epoxy? Let us know what you find there and we'll help you with the rewind. For a bigger motor like that you'll probably want to use two larger strands in parallel rather than trying to replace the original bundle of many more finer strands.

Jack
jackerbes is offline Find More Posts by jackerbes
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 21, 2015, 12:12 PM
Ron van Sommeren is offline
Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
Netherlands, GE, Nijmegen
Joined Feb 2001
13,597 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackerbes View Post
... Try to count the number of turns on an arm as you remove the old windings. ...
And before unwinding note whether the three phases are hooked up in star or delta. Important too.
In star, all the phases end in one point. In delta phases are connected one-on-one.
Each of the three phases consists of four coils.

Vriendelijke groeten Ron





Ron van Sommeren is offline Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2015, 05:00 AM
Wa7sh is offline
Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Registered User
Joined Sep 2011
174 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackerbes View Post
It it does not start and run on one or two clicks of throttle don't try for too long or with more throttle or you can damage an ESC also.

It looks like a rewind will have to be used to save it. But it is a big motor of decent quality and it it certainly worth the trouble to do it. That is a 12N14P motor and it has a dLRK wind on it now, if you want to get a feel for what you need to do to get the stator off of the bearing tube and see what the winding will involve these threads will help you.

How to repair an electric motor. - www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1079423

Outrunner Disassembly and Stripping - Gimbal Motor Rewind - www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1823636

Try to count the number of turns on an arm as you remove the old windings. Getting a count from one or two arms will help with deciding what you need to put back to have the same Kv rating.

Are the windings heavily saturated with epoxy? Let us know what you find there and we'll help you with the rewind. For a bigger motor like that you'll probably want to use two larger strands in parallel rather than trying to replace the original bundle of many more finer strands.

Jack
The windings are not heavily saturated but the stator won't move, I screwed 4 bolts on the motor mounting place and increased the pressure as I go on to the other bolt, and used 2 screw drivers to force out the stator but no use...

The stator is glued, do I use heat or freezing point ?
Wa7sh is offline Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2015, 08:21 AM
jackerbes is offline
Find More Posts by jackerbes
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
19,564 Posts
Either one can work. I used heat projected through the bearing tube most of the time until I found that the PB Blaster penetrating oil and a night in the freezer worked well. And manuel_v tried the freezer trick with WD-40 and that worked well for him just as well too.

Anything that gets the stator off undamaged is a good thing.

And once I get a stator off I usually cut a groove and use a piece of piano wire as a key to keep it from rotating in the future.

Jack
jackerbes is offline Find More Posts by jackerbes
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2015, 10:14 AM
Wa7sh is offline
Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Registered User
Joined Sep 2011
174 Posts
2nd thought they are heavily saturated with epoxy... And i removed the stator...

So I understand that now I must coat the stator, but which one and how do I remove the epoxy? Or so it by force ?

I went crazy counting how much copper wire in strand and it was about 81 more or less. 2 strand wires meet up at the end of the winding, soTimes so about 162 copper wires in a strand yellow.

I sent a message to rimfire company so i can get some info about the motor.
Wa7sh is offline Find More Posts by Wa7sh
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2015, 01:03 PM
jackerbes is offline
Find More Posts by jackerbes
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
19,564 Posts
Post #3 in this thread has the details on one of my bouts with epoxy soaked windings:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1892195

The details there about using a micro torch to loosen and follow a strand bundle will help too. If you are careful to use just the heat at the tip and not the flame, you can get a bundle in hand and loosen it as you follow it to the other end sometimes. As long as you don't get too much heat on the stator coating it will not be damaged.

Re-coating stators is not easy and not fun! So anything you can do to preserve the original coating is a good thing.

Breaking the strands one at a time along the top of an arm and peeling strands to the side and removed each arms windings as a clump or wad will usually leave you with an undamaged stator.

And, worst case, knowing the strand count in a bundle is about 40 and counting the broken strands at the top of an arm will give you a turn count. You have to be a fully addicted "man kintter" of motors to appreciate some of the things we do...

Your strands will typically be 0.25mm or may 0.22mm wire. And that is good to know info too. If you had 41 strands of 0.25mm wire you can go here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

And get some help on choosing wire for rewinding. If I found 0.25mm or so wire I would assume it might be 31 AWG wire as that is 0.227mm uncoated.

The cross section surface area of 0.0404mm2 give the strand bundle an area of 1.66mm2 and that would be about the same as 15 AWG wire at 1.65mm2. And we've learned the hard way that it is very difficult to get 15 AWG wire conform to the stator arms and make the turns on the corners so we would look for two strands with about that area. And two strands of 18 AWG at 0.823 for 1.64 mm2 becomes a candidate.

It is not too difficul to keep two strands perfectly arranged side by side and in two layers and even though you are not increasing the copper content at the same turn count you are producing a motor with a better magnetic karma and probably better cooling too.

If you have some scraps of wire and can experiment a little, you may find that you have enough room in a slot so that you can use two strands or even three strands that will increase the cross section area over the original amount and that raises the ampacity and lowers the resistance in the windings.

Jack
jackerbes is offline Find More Posts by jackerbes
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 22, 2015, 01:22 PM
Ron van Sommeren is offline
Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
Netherlands, GE, Nijmegen
Joined Feb 2001
13,597 Posts
Use heat/oven to soften the glue/epoxy/putty on/in the windings:
how to remove wire?
Removing old windings?
Removing windings, in pictures, slightly bigger motor same method
www.eschmidt.onlineelektro.de/scripts/show.aspx?content=/shop/home/leistung/motoren/drehstrom

Tips, tricks, checks, tests, videos, manuals, will save you trouble and questions, burnt motor/controller ...
Sticky: (Re)winding and building motors

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
Ron van Sommeren is offline Find More Posts by Ron van Sommeren
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Where to buy copper wire to build cp antennas Leftyatm FPV Talk 10 Nov 27, 2015 11:45 PM
Discussion flip flop solar flower source of fine copper wire for actuators rogenstein1983 Scratchbuilt Indoor and Micro Models 7 Mar 25, 2014 08:08 AM
Discussion Turnigy Pure Copper Wire: Where's the copper? AerialMike Batteries and Chargers 3 Mar 01, 2012 09:15 PM
Discussion Where to get copper wire for wrapping music wire joint in gear? cloud-9 Scale Kit/Scratch Built 18 Feb 12, 2008 01:16 AM