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Old Dec 26, 2012, 10:20 PM
Fly it like you STOL it!
Keenan smith's Avatar
United Kingdom, London
Joined Dec 2010
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Mini-HowTo
stabilized approaches

The number One Reason For Stalling on Approach is Because People Cut the power, Try to over extend the Glide and Stall the plane and Smack! you've Crashed

the solution is to use the Correct approach technique:

1. Begin your approach nice and High
2. circle above the Runway (landing Strip) to Lose altitude (do not Sink too quickly and Never under any Circumstances Chop the Throttle (keep it at around 25-30%) Lower the Gear (if it is Retractable May sound Silly but very important)
3.When you have Reached around 40ft, Begin your turn to Base Final (increase throttle to around 45% to prevent you from Stalling out in the Turn)
4.when you have completed you base to final turn (i refer to it as Base 2) Raise the nose slightly to bleed off Excess speed (if your plane is equipped with flaps, then this is the time to deploy them) keep the throttle at around 40% and use this rule to control your final approach

4a) Always use your rudder to keep the plane lined up with the Runway, Not the Ailerons (using the Ailerons to Laterally control the aircraft is a Big No No! it's a Rookie mistake )
4b) Use throttle to control The Descent rate (more power slows the Descent less speeds it up)
4c) Use you elevator in combined with throttle to control speed ( pulling up bleeds of speed, just remember to increase throttle at Higher AOA's in Order not to Stall out, however Dropping the nose Will make you gain speed but on the Flip-Side increase your Descent Rate, Always Keep an eye on you sink rate! otherwise you'll do a Maneuver i like to call Smackitin)

5. FLY the plane to the runway don't Glide or you increase the chances your chances of stalling the Aircraft
6. Just before touchdown FLARE! to bleed off almost all of your speed and kill your descent rate then just slowly reduce throttle to slowly touch her down safely on the ground

Keenan smith


Stabilised approaches: why do them? (2 min 50 sec)


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Old Dec 26, 2012, 10:48 PM
dusty bible = dirty life
Majortomski's Avatar
Oklahoma City OK USA Where fakts still exist even if they are ignored
Joined Aug 2000
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You have described every thing BUT a stabilized approach.

On a calm day, a stabilized approach will be just that; STABILIZED!

Pitch will remain constant
Power will remain constant
Airspeed will remain constant
Sinkrate will remain constant
ALL of these factors will be constant right up to the round out, flair, power down and touch down,.

And big suprise here, it can also be accomplished in a dead stick glide! i.e. Chop the throttle.

What the vast majority of RC pilots do not know or do not understand is that a trimmed airplane is trimmed to fly level at ONE AIRSPEED. If you chop the throttle and do NOTHING ELSE! The airplane will lower its nose gain and hold a decent rate that results in the same airspeed it had at cruise.

More on this tomorrow . Good night all
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 11:00 PM
The wind caused that!!
hoghead5150's Avatar
United States, OK, Poteau
Joined Jul 2012
617 Posts
while your thoughts may seem to work good for the planes you show in your video, they may not transfer into other planes.

my eflite apprentice comes to mind. while this plane can be landed with throttle, it's more like 10%. trying to hold the nose up and using throttle to control the decent does not work well on this plane.

some planes just don't like, or need throttle for landings. while i agree with watching your sink rate, and adjusting accordingly there just isn't a set way to land every plane.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 11:36 PM
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1320fastback's Avatar
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Elevator Trim is a constant adjustment for most planes like posted above.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 03:17 AM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
JetPlaneFlyer's Avatar
Aberdeen
Joined Mar 2006
11,186 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1320fastback View Post
Elevator Trim is a constant adjustment for most planes like posted above.
Actually I agree with Majortomski totally. A 'Stabilised approach' by definition is one that is 'stable' you don't have to make constant adjustments. i also agree with him that a stabilised and safe approach can be made 'dead-stick, if not how do gliders land safely?
A stable plane should be able to descend on an approach without content adjustments (at least in calm conditions). If you need to be constantly juggling elevator it probably means that you either have a plane that's unstable (some 3D models are like this) or more likely for most models that you haven't got the trim nailed.

I'd disagree with the OP on a few things.. He talks of power levels for different phases but these don't apply to all or even the majority of models. At 25-30% power my aerobatic models would be climbing, rather than descending. At 45% power I can go vertically up! Bottom line each model is different so it's pointless quoting throttle % levels.
I also disagree with the comment on not using ailerons, at least for many planes. For most aerobatic models that have no significant dihedral rudder on it's own has very little or no 'turning effect'. On some low wingers rudder may even induce roll in the direction opposite to the rudder input!. If you used only rudder on the approach it would be impossible to hold a straight heading or to pick up a low wing. All the rudder would do is induce yaw and side-slip, these models need aileron to induce a turn. Abandoning the use of ailerons on approach would be a sure fire recipe for a crash on such models. Possibly the OP has never flown an all out aerobatic model?
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 03:30 AM
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ArneHu's Avatar
Eastern Norway Scandinavia
Joined Dec 2009
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I have crashed a couple of gliders. Turning and doing maneuvers near the ground, while landing. The model stall, and fall down just like a stone. It's a hard and expensive way to learn.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:08 PM
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Taiwan, 北市
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I added down trim on my glider when turning to base leg and keep the same trim before touch down. This way prevented the heavier glider from being stalled when turning to base and final approach especially you have to fly landing patterns in winds.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:23 PM
Fly it like you STOL it!
Keenan smith's Avatar
United Kingdom, London
Joined Dec 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twn Chen View Post
I added down trim on my glider when turing to base leg and keep the same trim before touch down. This way prevented the heavier glider from being stalled when turning to base and final approach especially you have to fly landing patterns in winds.
Good idea Ill try that when im out flying my wing
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 09:51 PM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
The number One Reason For Stalling on Approach is Because People Cut the power,
Keenan, Keenan. You are old enough to know that just IS NOT TRUE. It is SO untrue that it is a dangerous thing to teach. Learning how to handle a plane in a glide is one of the handful of most important skills to MASTER, and if you're stalling just because you don't have any power you've set yourself up to lose a lot of airframes. Folks, DON'T BE THIS GUY! Land with NO POWER AT ALL! Do it hundreds of times. Conquer your completely unreasonable fear of losing power and turn it into pure fun! We'll rejoin Keenan's already completely derailed diatribe, in progress....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
Try to over extend the Glide and Stall the plane and Smack! you've Crashed
If you're unenlightened enough to follow Keenan's advice and choose to remain unskilled in power off flying. Please don't do that. Space shuttles glide to land every time. You can too. Don't listen to bad advice here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
the solution is to use the Correct approach technique:

1. Begin your approach nice and High
No argument there unless you're piloting my Radian. It will take a long time to come down from there. If you like your approach to take five minutes, fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
2. circle above the Runway (landing Strip) to Lose altitude
Again, no argument there. Spiraling to a landing is a great way to get down in a confined area, especially in a plane with long legs when power off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
(do not Sink too quickly and Never under any Circumstances Chop the Throttle (keep it at around 25-30%) Lower the Gear (if it is Retractable May sound Silly but very important)
At 25-30% my Slow Stick will climb indefinitely. It sure WILL NOT sink at all unless I put it into a dive, which is the last thing you want to do in a landing approach. Same for my Radian. I'd NEVER get it down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
3.When you have Reached around 40ft, Begin your turn to Base Final (increase throttle to around 45% to prevent you from Stalling out in the Turn)
Now I'm back to a climb in every plane I own. I can go completely vertical with my Slow Stick at 45% and STILL CLIMB. So you say forget the approach and just fly around. Fine. I like doing that but thought we were talking about landing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
4.when you have completed you base to final turn (i refer to it as Base 2) Raise the nose slightly to bleed off Excess speed (if your plane is equipped with flaps, then this is the time to deploy them) keep the throttle at around 40% and use this rule to control your final approach
Oh my! I'm still climbing vertically and am at about 800' now. How can I be in final approach? Oh, yeah the battery will eventually hit LVC and the plane will come down one way or another. Every plane I have will not descend at 40% throttle. Where are you getting these instructions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
4a) Always use your rudder to keep the plane lined up with the Runway, Not the Ailerons (using the Ailerons to Laterally control the aircraft is a Big No No! it's a Rookie mistake )
Unless you are doing a crab landing when you cross ailerons and rudder. Unless you need to level the wings. I've never ever seen the term "laterally control the aircraft." Which control surface handles the lateral axis anyway? What IS the lateral axis? What source teaches this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
4b) Use throttle to control The Descent rate (more power slows the Descent less speeds it up)
Descent? I'm climbing if I'm following your instructions, which I will not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
4c) Use you elevator in combined with throttle to control speed ( pulling up bleeds of speed, just remember to increase throttle at Higher AOA's in Order not to Stall out, however Dropping the nose Will make you gain speed but on the Flip-Side increase your Descent Rate, Always Keep an eye on you sink rate! otherwise you'll do a Maneuver i like to call Smackitin)
Dangerously wrong and very confusingly explained. Let me explain it like a pilot of a full size plane would. The elevator controls airspeed. The throttle controls altitude. Yes, common sense dictates that a plane made to dive with the elevator is losing altitude. However, elevator cannot make the plane climb at low throttle settings. So it's safest to stay with the paradigm: throttle/altitude, elevator/airspeed. The correct way to set up an approach is to use your elevator to set up an airspeed just above stall, perhaps 50% above stall speed, then use the throttle to dial in the descent rate. Let the plane sink all the way to ground level and you've landed. Your plane will flare itself due to ground effect. Most planes will land hands off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
5. FLY the plane to the runway don't Glide or you increase the chances your chances of stalling the Aircraft
Wrong. Dead wrong. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan smith View Post
6. Just before touchdown FLARE! to bleed off almost all of your speed and kill your descent rate then just slowly reduce throttle to slowly touch her down safely on the ground
You can flare if you want to. Landed properly, most planes will slow their descent rate due to ground effect. You already have minimum throttle. Since you are controlling airspeed with the elevator, it makes sense that if you slowly feed in up elevator, your plane will slow and increase its sink rate to touchdown. You might not want to increase that sink rate. A properly done approach will land itself. We've been doing it with free flight airplanes for 90 years. Works every time it's tried.

It's like taking care of fish. We learn all we can and we watch 'em closely every day. If there aren't any problems we imagine them and before long we're overmedicating, overfeeding, screwing with the water chemistry and just loving those poor fish to death. Set up a stable system and LEAVE THE POOR THINGS ALONE! Suddenly they're healthy!

Same with an approach. Set up a stable system and leave the @#$#@ plane alone. She'll sink in a beautiful approach and land herself. Your only input will be to level the wings with aileron and line up with the runway with the rudder. But it will land itself. If you want to take the credit, take a bow.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 06:27 AM
dusty bible = dirty life
Majortomski's Avatar
Oklahoma City OK USA Where fakts still exist even if they are ignored
Joined Aug 2000
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Thank you Rockin, well put and saved me some typing.

Also, Keenan, on RCG it's considered bad form to post the same material under different forums. Which is all you have done here with your opinions over in RC Airliners etc.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 07:27 AM
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1320fastback's Avatar
USA, CA, Oceanside
Joined Jul 2008
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I should of said Evevator Trim could be a constant adjustment with a power change on some planes. If you are stabilized then the trim change has already happened.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 08:35 AM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
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Interesting stuff, ALL! That included Keenan's stuff. It's always interesting to see how people treat something we all do every flight completely differently. I'm afraid I've been exposed to full size aircraft thinking and have extended it to model flying and it works well.

I've also flown enough planes to know that being too specific on throttle settings, flap settings, advisability of flat turns, etc, is VERY DIFFERENT from plane to plane. Great advice for a Parkzone Mustang might be lousy advice for a specific EDF, a flying wing, or an eFlite Apprentice.Then, there's Joe, with his MODIFIED apprentice with a 50 hp motor and he has to reverse the prop to slow for a landing....

Get yourself a Crashtesthobby.com Titan flying wing and by Keenan's instructions you are not permitted to land the plane. It has no rudder and that's all you're permitted to use for directional control.

There are other aspects to stalling planes that come into play during a landing. Based on my experience, I believe that MOST planes are set up to be overly stable by having the CG too far forward. This does give a reassuring sense that the plane actually wants to fly in the proper direction (to some degree that is necessary in order for humans to fly a plane: the aerodynamic center must be behind the center of gravity for positive stability), but what happens when we do too much of a good thing?

What keeps the plane flying level is the leverage the stabilizer has to hold the overly heavy nose up. When you fly too slowly, say, upon landing when you are close to the ground, what happens? The elevator runs out of leverage (I feel a new TV show coming on!) and the nose drops. We call that a stall, but we are wrong. What has happened is not a stall because the wing never even came close to stalling. There is no tell-tale shake or warning. It just happens.

Now the plane has fallen off into a dive. It will remain in an uncontrolled, unrecoverable dive until there is enough airflow over that elevator to regain enough leverage to level the plane again. The further in front of the aerodynamic center the CG is, the greater the altitude loss and the higher the uncontrolled and unrecoverable dive speed is to regain control. The severity of the crash increases proportionally to the square of the velocity. Doubling your dive speed quadruples the damage. If it takes your plane 15' and you are only 10' above the ground you will have a medium to high speed collision with planet Earth. But YOU DID NOT STALL THE PLANE!

In fact, your plane is actually capable of flying much slower than the speed at which it became a buffalo turd. To fix it you have to do something uncomfortable. You must move the CG BACK. Do it slowly and in small increments of say, three millimeters at a time, noting the changes. Reason? At some point the CG is coincident with the aerodynamic center and you, friend flier, can no longer control the plane. Side note: even at negative stability where you don't have a prayer (you're trying to push a rope) a gyro can still fly that plane.

With my Radian, I found that by moving back from the factory specified CG, 63mm from the leading edge of the wing at the root to 70mm back, transformed the plane completely. I still had enough stability to be able to fly the plane, but its behavior was revolutionized. The stall speed was half to two-thirds what I had thought it was. I could slow the plane to an unbelievable extent and remain flying! And the plane's behavior during a stall, yes, I was now able to actually stall the wing, was different. Gone was the tendency for the nose to drop and the plane to dive. Instead the wings shook slightly and the plane tended to mush forward, dropping kind of like a leaf. Even if it did hit the ground in that configuration little damage would be done. To resume flying, a blip of down does the trick with no fuss from the plane. It merely resumes flying and asks what all the fuss was about.

The Radian is a sailplane. It MUST be landed power off or it will never come down. I recommend a sailplane to every pilot. It will teach you the TRUE principles of how to fly a plane. Don't buy any hogwash about a motor being necessary for ANYTHING in a model airplane. It's nice to have for certain functions. (In the Radian it is a launch device) That's as far as it goes.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 12:27 PM
Registered User
United States, ID, Burley
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Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
Interesting stuff, ALL! That included Keenan's stuff. It's always interesting to see how people treat something we all do every flight completely differently. I'm afraid I've been exposed to full size aircraft thinking and have extended it to model flying and it works well.

I've also flown enough planes to know that being too specific on throttle settings, flap settings, advisability of flat turns, etc, is VERY DIFFERENT from plane to plane. Great advice for a Parkzone Mustang might be lousy advice for a specific EDF, a flying wing, or an eFlite Apprentice.Then, there's Joe, with his MODIFIED apprentice with a 50 hp motor and he has to reverse the prop to slow for a landing....

Get yourself a Crashtesthobby.com Titan flying wing and by Keenan's instructions you are not permitted to land the plane. It has no rudder and that's all you're permitted to use for directional control.

There are other aspects to stalling planes that come into play during a landing. Based on my experience, I believe that MOST planes are set up to be overly stable by having the CG too far forward. This does give a reassuring sense that the plane actually wants to fly in the proper direction (to some degree that is necessary in order for humans to fly a plane: the aerodynamic center must be behind the center of gravity for positive stability), but what happens when we do too much of a good thing?

What keeps the plane flying level is the leverage the stabilizer has to hold the overly heavy nose up. When you fly too slowly, say, upon landing when you are close to the ground, what happens? The elevator runs out of leverage (I feel a new TV show coming on!) and the nose drops. We call that a stall, but we are wrong. What has happened is not a stall because the wing never even came close to stalling. There is no tell-tale shake or warning. It just happens.

Now the plane has fallen off into a dive. It will remain in an uncontrolled, unrecoverable dive until there is enough airflow over that elevator to regain enough leverage to level the plane again. The further in front of the aerodynamic center the CG is, the greater the altitude loss and the higher the uncontrolled and unrecoverable dive speed is to regain control. The severity of the crash increases proportionally to the square of the velocity. Doubling your dive speed quadruples the damage. If it takes your plane 15' and you are only 10' above the ground you will have a medium to high speed collision with planet Earth. But YOU DID NOT STALL THE PLANE!

In fact, your plane is actually capable of flying much slower than the speed at which it became a buffalo turd. To fix it you have to do something uncomfortable. You must move the CG BACK. Do it slowly and in small increments of say, three millimeters at a time, noting the changes. Reason? At some point the CG is coincident with the aerodynamic center and you, friend flier, can no longer control the plane. Side note: even at negative stability where you don't have a prayer (you're trying to push a rope) a gyro can still fly that plane.

With my Radian, I found that by moving back from the factory specified CG, 63mm from the leading edge of the wing at the root to 70mm back, transformed the plane completely. I still had enough stability to be able to fly the plane, but its behavior was revolutionized. The stall speed was half to two-thirds what I had thought it was. I could slow the plane to an unbelievable extent and remain flying! And the plane's behavior during a stall, yes, I was now able to actually stall the wing, was different. Gone was the tendency for the nose to drop and the plane to dive. Instead the wings shook slightly and the plane tended to mush forward, dropping kind of like a leaf. Even if it did hit the ground in that configuration little damage would be done. To resume flying, a blip of down does the trick with no fuss from the plane. It merely resumes flying and asks what all the fuss was about.

The Radian is a sailplane. It MUST be landed power off or it will never come down. I recommend a sailplane to every pilot. It will teach you the TRUE principles of how to fly a plane. Don't buy any hogwash about a motor being necessary for ANYTHING in a model airplane. It's nice to have for certain functions. (In the Radian it is a launch device) That's as far as it goes.
Yes indeed ! I fly several power gliders,and the points made here are correct ! I bring mine down in a slight dive,level out about 10 feet off the ground, throw on flaps,and of course she raises about two feet,put in a little down elevator and she just floats to the ground.If i tried coming in doing circles to bleed off speed i would just float around up there .
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 12:55 PM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
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Aberdeen
Joined Mar 2006
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I agree that most planes probably are set up overly stable. The usual issue I find with a nose heavy plane on landing is that you need loads of up elevator to flair, and maybe if it's really nose heavy you just run out of elevator and the plane just wont flair as all and lands hot.

I prefer a CG close to neutral stability. It is actually perfectly possible to fly a plane with totally neutral stability and even some degree of negative stability. For instance the standard approach to setting the CG on a 3D model is roll inverted and if it flies level without holding any down elevator then that's about the right CG for 3D flying. This means the plane basically has neutral stability but it's still perfectly flyable. In fact you can go a bit further back on the CG until the plane climbs when inverted and still fly. I've got one model (PA Ultimate AMR) where the factory recommended CG is actually 10mm further back than neutral (an error in the manual IMHO). Roll it inverted with that CG and it does a half outside loop! Even so it's still flyable, though quite hard work.

Best example of a flyable but highly unstable model I can think of was an incident with my friends Parkzone Corsair. Normally the battery slots all the way forward in the nose of the corsair and the plane is very stable. We were messing about re-binding the receiver one day and to gain good access to the rx temporarily stuck the battery in the rear of the hatch way back behind the wing TE.
We weren't paying attention and stuck the canopy back on and launched the plane
I was flying and could tell the CG was miles out right away. I stuck in some down trim and it actually fly ok but as soon as you slowed up it put it's nose in the air and wallowed around. It took a lot of concentration but I did eventually bring it home for a reasonable landing. We checked the CG and it was at least 50% back on the wing!.. I'm no wonder pilot, any half decent flyer could have done the same I'm sure.

I think it all depends on the plane, something faster and less forgiving than the lightweight foamy Corsair and it would have been curtains.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 02:29 PM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
I was flying and could tell the CG was miles out right away. I stuck in some down trim and it actually fly ok but as soon as you slowed up it put it's nose in the air and wallowed around. It took a lot of concentration but I did eventually bring it home for a reasonable landing. We checked the CG and it was at least 50% back on the wing!.. I'm no wonder pilot, any half decent flyer could have done the same I'm sure.

I think it all depends on the plane, something faster and less forgiving than the lightweight foamy Corsair and it would have been curtains.
Aye! You're a better pilot than I Gunga Din. I probably would have pranged it for sure!
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