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Old Yesterday, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by flypaper 2 View Post
The gyro system itself makes the plane feel like it has some expo. Of course, with the gyro on, it's trying to resist any control input you give, feeling like expo. It that case, I do put a bit of expo in on the planes with very high control throws, as in the 3D planes. The pattern type planes that fly like on a rail, I don't use any expo on.

Gord.
I fly most of my planes, including the Pitts on 30% expo. My wife seems to think I'm OK in the "manly" department and she's the only one that counts...

AS3X or any functional gyro system does NOT try to resist the pilot's control inputs, it resists influences that are caused by outside sources, like the wind. I don't turn it off on the Pitts, but my UMX Radian flies no different with AS3X on or off when it's windstill. On that plane I have AS3X linked to the throttle so it turns on whenever I power up. (I can also turn it on all the time, but usually don't). For obvious reasons I don't want AS3X to mask the wind when I am chasing thermals, but I see no reason not to have it when I'm motoring.

Owen
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Old Yesterday, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Crash Override View Post
I'm going to agree with all of this - except the expo. IF you use it at all, I'd say no more than 10%-20%. Mushy sticks (which is what high expo does) actually make control more difficult and can/does cause panic reactions when the bird isn't responding as fast as you want; i.e. you'll yank the stick all the way, thereby over-correcting - and compounding the problem.
Spoken like someone who either has never tried expo, or just tried it once, added way too much, probably combined with way too much control throw, and made a decision based on that.....

The whole point of expo is so you DONT overcorrect. All it really is in the end is dual rates, except you don't have to (and cant forget to) flip a switch. Move the stick a little, you are in low rates, move it a lot, you are in high rates. The transition though, is not so abrupt that you can suddenly overcorrect like that on a properly set up model. If you have way too much control surface throw, no amount of expo can help you, I found that one out the hard way. Expo is just one tool in the toolbox to better flying, but it wont magicaly correct a bad setup....

If the sticks feel "mushy" because of expo, the problem isn't expo itself, the problem is simply too much expo.
The whole point of expo is to get the sticks to feel the way you like them.
The way you tune expo, is you fly the plane, and if it feels "twitchy", you add expo, and if it feels like you have to move the sticks too far to get the model to do what you want, (aka, mushy) you have too much expo, take some out.
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Old Yesterday, 06:21 PM
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The thing maybe people don't realize is that they use expo every day if they drive a car. A car steering rack has expo built in most of the time. It's mechanical, but still...
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Old Yesterday, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dacaur View Post
Spoken like someone who either has never tried expo, or just tried it once, added way too much, probably combined with way too much control throw, and made a decision based on that.....

The whole point of expo is so you DONT overcorrect. All it really is in the end is dual rates, except you don't have to (and cant forget to) flip a switch. Move the stick a little, you are in low rates, move it a lot, you are in high rates. The transition though, is not so abrupt that you can suddenly overcorrect like that on a properly set up model. If you have way too much control surface throw, no amount of expo can help you, I found that one out the hard way. Expo is just one tool in the toolbox to better flying, but it wont magicaly correct a bad setup....

If the sticks feel "mushy" because of expo, the problem isn't expo itself, the problem is simply too much expo.
The whole point of expo is to get the sticks to feel the way you like them.
The way you tune expo, is you fly the plane, and if it feels "twitchy", you add expo, and if it feels like you have to move the sticks too far to get the model to do what you want, (aka, mushy) you have too much expo, take some out.
You are VERY incorrect in that I have "... never tried expo, or just tried it once, added way too much, probably combined with way too much control throw, and made a decision based on that....." because it seems to me that you did not read where I said I use it with my helos but not with my planes because "The whole point of expo is to get the sticks to feel the way you like them." I have ALL my birds set up as I like them. I'm sure you've done the same with yours.

Even saying that about me (or anyone else, for that matter) is in the least incredibly presumptuous on your part when, just like everyone else here, you know nothing about me other than what I choose to post here.

I am not disagreeing with anyone about expo's usefulness or appropriateness or anything like that. I simply have little use for it with my planes currently, and possibly/likely I might never have a use for it. If your use of expo is getting it for you, that's awesome, OK? It doesn't get it for me, OK? How many times do I have to say that? Because I will continue to repeat it ad nauseam until everyone understands that I like my setups as they are. I mention them simply as an option for others to consider.

(rant on)
File this in what you all now know about me:
I have always been unconventional. I was taught to question EVERYTHING and to go learn for myself. I was taught that staying safe in the known and knowable was stagnation, that going along with the conventional and the established was a little like dying, while challenging the established was how one grew in so many ways. I was taught to not fear going against the grain, and to not fear those who try to force me to go with the grain. I will happily listen to what you have to say, agree where I think you right, disagree where I think you wrong, and happily discuss it with you for as long as you wish - but I will NOT tolerate being patronized, or treated in a condescending manner, or belittled in any way. I try very hard to not do that to others (and I'm sure I fail at it often enough, too - I'm as human as the rest of you), and I would appreciate the courtesy of being treated with the same respect you want to be treated with.
(rant off)
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Old Yesterday, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash Override View Post
You are VERY incorrect in that I have "... never tried expo
........................
.......................
Even saying that about me (or anyone else, for that matter) is in the least incredibly presumptuous on your part when, just like everyone else here, you know nothing about me other than what I choose to post here.
........................
..........................
I am not disagreeing with anyone about expo's usefulness or appropriateness or anything like that
.........................
................
- but I will NOT tolerate being patronized, or treated in a condescending manner, or belittled in any way. I try very hard to not do that to others (and I'm sure I fail at it often enough, too - I'm as human as the rest of you), and I would appreciate the courtesy of being treated with the same respect you want to be treated with.
(rant off)

But you said you didn't use it "at all".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash Override View Post
and don't use it at all myself. I like thinking about what I want to happen being enough to make it happen
.

But you did disagree....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash Override View Post
I'm going to agree with all of this - except the expo
.



Don't contradict yourself, because it is obvious when you do in writing,. LOL

No one is trying to belittle you man.
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Old Yesterday, 07:53 PM
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There's one system, not sure whether it's the Eagle or not, but when you give over a certain amount of stick movement, it shuts off the gyro system for aerobatics. My Lemon doesn't do that.

Gord.
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Old Yesterday, 08:02 PM
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I have an RC car gyro that I can set up a mix with, so that it corrects less and less the farther I turn the wheel. I think that is the way AS3X works too. It is a gradual thing though, not on/off. More like a curve to full off and end of stick travel.
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Old Today, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWX_ View Post
But you said you didn't use it "at all".
.

But you did disagree....
.



Don't contradict yourself, because it is obvious when you do in writing,. LOL

No one is trying to belittle you man.
OK ya kinda got me there - and it's my own fault for not saying it's just with planes, because both my CP helos need it.
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Old Today, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flypaper 2 View Post
There's one system, not sure whether it's the Eagle or not, but when you give over a certain amount of stick movement, it shuts off the gyro system for aerobatics. My Lemon doesn't do that.

Gord.
With the AS3X system, stick priority over the control surfaces a channel controls is a setting that can be adjusted. All the factory settings I have looked at (only two so far) place a high priority on the stick so that there is no "fighting" the PILOTS's input even when also being buffeted by the wind.

There is a separate expo setting on the receivers if you want expo.
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Old Today, 09:47 AM
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Hey Crash, I don't think anyone was directly flaming you. We're just one big happy Pitts family here. (More than I can say about other threads around here.)

Fly on....
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Old Today, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flypaper 2 View Post
The gyro system itself makes the plane feel like it has some expo. Of course, with the gyro on, it's trying to resist any control input you give, feeling like expo. It that case, I do put a bit of expo in on the planes with very high control throws, as in the 3D planes. The pattern type planes that fly like on a rail, I don't use any expo on.

Gord.
Can we please stop perpetuating the falsehood that gyros resist any control inputs you give? They do nothing of the sort. Perhaps what you're describing is you're moving the sticks and not seeing much reaction out of the plane, making it feel like that plane doesn't want to react to you and thus conclude it is resisting - that's just a byproduct of too much aggregated expo. I fully believe this is the reason you see AS3X threads littered with complaints that the system "fights" the pilot.

The reason they (gyro systems) behave as if there is expo built in is because there is - the throw limits of the control surface are attenuated based on stick position and the gyro effectiveness i.e. gains. Expo itself is... attenuation of the throws of the control surfaces, based on stick position! It does not ever in any gyro system made have an algorithm that says "Well he's banking right but I don't feel like it yet, so let's not go there until he moves the sticks more." If the gyro system "fought" any control input you give it, then stick it on the ground and move the ailerons. If they don't move right away and proportionally to the stick input you give it, then it's "resisting." I think you'll find that you won't ever, ever, ever see that to be the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash Override View Post
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehe!

Expo is like everything else - just personal preference.

I've seen that braggadocio too - it just makes me laugh.

Expo is often very useful - I have 15% on my Nano CP X because it's a hummingbird on crack and stupid twitchy to boot, and 10% on my 300 CFX because it's a little on the sensitive side in a hover otherwise. There's not much I can do push-rod wise with either.

Whether or not I get to where I use expo with my planes will depend entirely on my flying style (and how it evolves) and whether I ever see a need for that range of control surface throw. I doubt I will - because just like with my helos I'm pretty much a scale style pilot with my planes. I'm not saying that won't change or that I won't ever try it, just that the probability is low. I feel no attraction to the more extreme styles of flight others enjoy - and for those who do enjoy them MORE POWER TO YA!

To me, this hobby is about having a good time doing something you like doing regardless of what it is - it's not about rank, or prowess, or being the alpha. I understand how some see it that way, but quite frankly I'm well past the point of needing to prove myself to anyone other than myself or really caring what anyone else thinks of me (beyond a select few, obviously). To use the vernacular, "I'm too old for that ."
Good points you make and I"m glad you left yourself open to expo in the future. I have several planes I run with 70% expo. They are all 3D planes. There are very few times I would like to reach for a switch to change rates or flight modes while I'm flying a 3D plane as it's enough of a concentration exercise just flying the plane. That much expo on the plane is necessary for me to control it smoothly throughout the entire flight envelope that I'm capable of. I learned with a very soft touch on the sticks, so on most of my planes that aren't 3D or are more scale, I don't use expo, because my hands are already soft around center. But when I'm flying a plane that has 60 of elevator throw, even a small amount of movement at center can - will! - cause extreme reactions. This applies also to an EDF plane I have that hauls some MAJOR tail - remember, the faster the plane moves through the air, the more effective the controls become - so very little movement of the control surface results in some very quick reactions in the air. For these reasons I use expo to suit my flying and my fingers (just like you said). I need that larger full-throw on the elevator of the EDF to get it down and flare for a belly landing... it comes in hot and mushy on the controls and it is the sketchiest thing I own to land. I do NOT want to hunt for a d/r switch to get full throw out of the elevator. Likewise when I'm hovering my 48" Edge, I don't want to have to hunt for a d/r switch to get my 50 - 60 throws out of the elevator and rudder. I want to watch the plane and fly it through the hover. Another thing to remember is that control throw will also dictate what kind of expo you might want to add. If you have very little control throw, like a UMX Sport Cub S elevator in stock configuration, adding expo is going to REALLY make that elevator feel mushy.

I agree that the "I don't use expo badge of honor" is not a badge of honor at all. "Congratulations?" is my usual thought-response.... using little of it, using lots of it, using none of it, all depends on what you're flying, how you're flying, how you use the transmitter sticks, how much control throw you have, etc.

Quick anecdote: I asked a friend of mine, who is a sponsored team pilot for several major brands of R/C aircraft and R/c related companies, someone who performs demos at events like Joe Nall, to assist me with setup and have a look-see at a plane that was giving me problems a couple of weeks ago. After we'd reset the throws he asked me "How much expo do you have on the tail?" and when we went through the menu both were set to 60%... his response was "Good, that's great, right where we want it to be."

Expo is your friend, and always will be. dacaur said it already and he's right - expo will help you fly a model more smoothly and better when set up correctly. But I don't really agree that "if you have too much control surface throw no amount of expo can help you." Just like the EDF I mentioned earlier, I need that big throw during hand launch and landing while the airspeed is low, but in the air, it simply can't have a lot of throw. Expo is my dual-rate "switch."

Expo is pretty simple math to work out and you can watch it all happen if you have a Spektrum transmitter (and I'm sure other brands but here we are in a UMX thread made by Horizon so Spektrum is the brand that we're going to be using a vast majority of the time). Just set your expo up, move the stick, and watch the little box move up the graph. Move the stick in the monitor screen and watch the throws move as the sticks move. Plug a battery in a plane and watch the surfaces move as you move the sticks, with all you'll see the expo in action, and understand it better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromnewo View Post
I fly most of my planes, including the Pitts on 30% expo. My wife seems to think I'm OK in the "manly" department and she's the only one that counts...

AS3X or any functional gyro system does NOT try to resist the pilot's control inputs, it resists influences that are caused by outside sources, like the wind. I don't turn it off on the Pitts, but my UMX Radian flies no different with AS3X on or off when it's windstill. On that plane I have AS3X linked to the throttle so it turns on whenever I power up. (I can also turn it on all the time, but usually don't). For obvious reasons I don't want AS3X to mask the wind when I am chasing thermals, but I see no reason not to have it when I'm motoring.

Owen
Thank you sir

I never really understood the AS3X on the baby radian personally.... being able to watch that wingtip suddenly lift, or see the tail scoot up, is the hallmark of a thermal. THAT's a place where AS3X could be left out. I'm not much of a glider person but I think releasing the UMX Whipit without any stabilization for finding thermals was a good idea.


FRAT / TLDR: expo is good, easy to learn what it really does, easy to find reasons why you can and should use it. Also gyros don't resist control inputs.


Ben
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Old Today, 11:35 AM
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Well Guys, I'm beginning to think the Pitts is too fast for this old man. Took her up Friday and broke the nose off. This was the third crash on the very first batt. I haven't been able to get a whole flight in.

Maybe I don't have my DX9 set up right...IDK

I don't do any fancy flying, I just want to get used to her cruising around. If some of you want to share some numbers to punch into my DX9 I would certainly appreciate it as I'm really becoming discouraged. I'm thinking too, I just might shelve her and get a Sport Cub S.

Mike.
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Old Today, 12:22 PM
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Ben:: Explain, with full throw on my Sbach, it will do a 20 ft. loop without the gyro on the lemon system. With the gyro on, it will do a 30 ft loop.
Sitting on the ground and when you give full throw, it will go immediately , as, with the plane sitting still there is no gyro influence on it.
As far as expo goes, it has no influence on it ,as you still have the same full throw when you give it. It only works from the neutral point of the sticks.
As far as the AS3X system compared to the Lemon or Orange systems goes who knows whether they use exactly the same programming.

Gord.
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Old Today, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromnewo View Post
AS3X or any functional gyro system does NOT try to resist the pilot's control inputs, it resists influences that are caused by outside sources, like the wind. I don't turn it off on the Pitts, but my UMX Radian flies no different with AS3X on or off when it's windstill.
My UMX Radian fly different with vs. without AS3X. Not much but noticeable.
It feels a little sluggish and it seems it dampens the movement a little. This is not the same that expo do but it can feel a little similar.
If you make a dive test with and without AS3X you get different results like this:


I fly the Radian most without AS3X mainly for longer flightimes in thermal.

And the little PT17 feels much more different with AS3X than without. I make it switchable only from curiosity but i don't like it without AS3X. It feel much bigger with AS3X even without any wind.

For the expo settings, expo is a personal preference any specifications for others are useless anybody must find out the right settings for yourself.
If sombody complains a twitchy plane then there is nothing wrong with the plane he has only the wrong expo settings.
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