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Old May 29, 2013, 04:31 PM
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Careful!
3D is NOT for everyone

This thread is a resurrection of the old thread. Attempts have been made to make it sticky but they must have run out of glue. There are 30 pages of suggestions and comments that can be found on the original thread and can be found >here<. The thread was closed to give it a reprieve from the 3D advocates - which was my bad. It could not be opened again. The purpose of this thread is to help beginners learn to fly. It is NOT intended or meant to learn how to fly 3D. There are other threads for that purpose. Suggestions and comments are more than welcomed but PLEASE refrain from posting your 3D experience on this thread. The introduction has been reproduced - by permission of the author.


3D is NOT for everyone
A LOT of beginners - and I underline a LOT - are misled or misguided or misinformed into thinking they should set up their 450's for 3D because that is the way to learn. BUT there is another helicopter world that has nothing to do with 3D - called SCALE flying and approximates as close as possible real flying in a real helicopter. Not that it is any easier - and in fact is considerably more difficult to slow fly and precision hovering and 360 degree turns around the field with coordinated banked turns instead of zipping and zapping and rocketing and imitating a humming bird on crack. OK - so much for slamming 3D - how do you setup your brand-new just built 450 for scale flying? Get out your pitch gauge and open up the pitch-curve and throttle curve menus on your transmitter and let's start spinning up.

First - and most importantly - get rid of all that negative pitch. -2 degrees (-2) is all you need in the beginning - and this is to insure you can get back down on the ground and glue you to the ground if there is any wind. Someday you may want to do some inverted flying - but there is an awful lot of non-inverted flying you will want to learn first. An ideal pitch-curve for beginners is -2 (low stick) +4 (center stick) and +8 (high stick). This will cause your heli to get light on the skids slightly above center stick. But what about the throttle curve? Here is where you want to start taking notes. The throttle should be independent of the pitch once you spin up. How you do that? Your transmitter can switch flight-modes (The DX7 uses "Normal" -"ST1"- "ST2") and each of these flight-modes has its own throttle-curve and pitch-curve. Using the DX7 for this example - set the throttle curve in "Nomal" for 0-25-80-80-80. This will spin up your engine and hold about an 80% head speed above the 1/4 stick position. Set the throttle curve in "ST1" for 80-80-80-80-80 . This will hold a constant head speed constant in all stick positions. Now here's where it gets slick with the stick. Set the pitch curve in "Normal" for -2, 0, 3, 3, 3 on your pitch gauge. Note: The numbers in the DX7 are not degrees - they are percentage - you need a pitch gauge to convert the numbers into degrees. Set the pitch curve in "ST1" the same way except the last two points on the curve will be 5 and 8. Your pitch curve will be -2, 0, 3, 5, 8. "Normal" flight-mode will be for spinning up and spinning down - "ST1" will be for flying.

First Flight test: Spin up in "Normal" - bring up your collective stick to about 25% (this will spool up your engine but not take off). Switch to "ST1" and continue to bring up your collective (gradually) until you have lift off. Now you are controlling altitude with pitch and not head speed. This will give you far smoother control of maintaining your height - just like a full scale helicopter. For landing it is just the opposite. Reduce your collective (gradually) until you are the ground - switch to "Normal" and bring your throttle down to zero. Switch on throttle-hold for safety.

Note: At any time you want to shut off the engine - try to avoid slamming the collective down - this negative pitch will pull the heli into the ground. Condition your finger or thumb or big toe (whichever works for you) to switch ON throttle-hold or throttle-cut when you panic. This will maintain your positive pitch on the blades and help eliminate the pan-cake effect.

captJac
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Old May 29, 2013, 05:52 PM
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Old May 29, 2013, 05:53 PM
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Posted one time on the thread at helifreak and got smoked bad, keep postin Jack and I'll keep reading
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Old May 29, 2013, 07:21 PM
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YAAAAY! Thank you CaptJac!

*Shameless bump to keep it on the main page!*
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Old May 29, 2013, 11:23 PM
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Thanks Jack. I am glad to see this VERYT important topic back open. I sincerley hope that this one can remain "On Topic" and not get contaminated.

Long live -2, 0, 3, 5, 8 !!!!!

ROG
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Old May 29, 2013, 11:43 PM
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Do you think that maybe part of the misguided emphasis on 3D is due to beginners not knowing what else to do? I mean, once you learn to hover and fly around a bit, I think a lot of people think the next step is to flip or roll the thing. Maybe we could promote scale flying by talking more about the scale maneuvers you can learn and how to practice them? Finless Bob created the beginner challenges, intended to be done on video, so that people had specific drills to practice, and while those were intended to teach some 3D skills, the thinking is sound. If we talked more about precision flying and less about 3D maybe the beginners would come along. Give them specific scale maneuvers to practice? Get people to post videos of scale flying?
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Old May 30, 2013, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by whitehedr View Post
Thanks Jack. I am glad to see this VERYT important topic back open. I sincerley hope that this one can remain "On Topic" and not get contaminated.

Long live -2, 0, 3, 5, 8 !!!!!

ROG
Contaminated? By what? Oh No! Discussion and debate. They need to be stamped out. Eradicated.

Yes. We must be pure. Those numbers are sacrosanct and canon. This is not up for discussion even though this is a forum. There is no other way. Period. If you are a beginner EVEN with a durable aerobatic submicro. If you do not fly '3D' this is the ONLY way.

---

With much respect to the Captain, I think a lot less zealotry and fanaticism, and more open mindedness would be beter amongst certain elements of his faction. Opening a thread like this is good but it should involve debate and discussion and not unilateral preaching of one dogma excluding all else.

The title itself begs the question. What is 3D? Who is everyone? And is there really an implied dichotomy?

The title begs discussion and debate. Is that not part of science?

I would vote to sticky your thread any day, Cap. I truly believe your way helps loads. It is the... zealotry of some people here I find... unsettling.
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Old May 30, 2013, 04:01 AM
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Speaking as a retired one (like Marines, there are no "ex"-surfers), if every surfer were compelled to 30-foot waves, there would be a lot fewer living surfers.

Make of that what you wish, I don't feel compelled to explain it.
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Old May 30, 2013, 04:09 AM
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once again thanks for the advice, my brother gave up for a few months, I set his 450 up the other day as per your suggestions and it has renewed his confidence, so much he has now paid to join the club where I fly and is loving it. On another note I finally got my mini titan sports and decided to use the book settings for beginner, wow it was a handful, I changed the settings as per your advice and its a pleasure to fly now. Although my TT MD530 I have now put more negative pitch at -4 as I am now flying in some very high winds, horses for courses :-)
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Old May 30, 2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by arbilab View Post
Speaking as a retired one (like Marines, there are no "ex"-surfers), if every surfer were compelled to 30-foot waves, there would be a lot fewer living surfers.

Make of that what you wish, I don't feel compelled to explain it.
I would pose another analogy - if you want to drive a manual car (stick shift) and that is what you want and will end up doing, why would you ever bother learning on an automatic? You start on a manual car.

Likewise if you only drive on the continent, why bother to learn driving on the left side of the road?

Learning 0 mid when your eventual goal is to run 0 mid makes sense in that there's is less to unlearn. And it doesn't have to be aggressive amounts of pitch or aggresively set up on cyclic. 0 mid also != 3D exclusively, many people fly 0 mid and do no 3D.

Neurologically, to me, it is a simpler to start the way you intend to continue. But that's my opinion and difference in opinion is what sparks debate, argument and hopefully progress and advancement of knowledge.

Also, heli's aren't surfing. You don't tend to drown if your nano goes in. A 700 is a different matter but you see where I am getting at with today's technology.

There is more than one way to learn, that is all I am suggesting and to be dogmatic to the point of excluding all views.... I dunno.

I stand by what I say though. Capt Jac's views deserve to be stickied for those who would be helped by them, but not to the point that it is dogma.

TIMTOWDI
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Old May 30, 2013, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by spykez View Post
There is more than one way to learn, that is all I am suggesting and to be dogmatic to the point of excluding all views.... I dunno
This forum supports all views and opinions - as it should. You have made your viewpoint clear. There is no doubt you have a lot of support for your viewpoint in this forum and other forums. This thread promotes a different philosophy than yours. Insisting on your viewpoint be heard and have equal representation on this thread will only serve to alienate the people who don't share your viewpoint - and I would be first in that lineup. You have every right to make your viewpoint known - and I would be the first to encourage you - but NOT on this thread. I think we are pretty clear on that. Instead of protesting - why not start your own thread? In this manner you are able to state and support your philosophies without bumping heads. Thank you for your consideration.

captJac

*** Child psychologist teach inappropriate behaviors are to gain attention and those behaviors are reinforced by acknowledging them. ***
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Old May 30, 2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by spykez View Post
Contaminated? By what? Oh No! Discussion and debate. They need to be stamped out. Eradicated.

Yes. We must be pure. Those numbers are sacrosanct and canon. This is not up for discussion even though this is a forum. There is no other way. Period. If you are a beginner EVEN with a durable aerobatic submicro. If you do not fly '3D' this is the ONLY way.

---

With much respect to the Captain, I think a lot less zealotry and fanaticism, and more open mindedness would be beter amongst certain elements of his faction. Opening a thread like this is good but it should involve debate and discussion and not unilateral preaching of one dogma excluding all else.

The title itself begs the question. What is 3D? Who is everyone? And is there really an implied dichotomy?

The title begs discussion and debate. Is that not part of science?

I would vote to sticky your thread any day, Cap. I truly believe your way helps loads. It is the... zealotry of some people here I find... unsettling.
Spykez, You just can't keep your mouth shut can you? This thread is about teaching beginners how to fly. If you want to preach and discuss the virtues of 3D flying by all means start your own thread in the 3D Forum. Don't come here and "CONTAMINATE" the beginners/scale flying thread. As they say on that football pre-game "c'mon man" give us a break, post those kinds of thoughts in the appropriate place.

ROG
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Old May 30, 2013, 11:48 AM
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Wait... is this an argument over how to set the pitch curve? Who cares? I fly lots of scale maneuvers with a standard pitch curve.
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Old May 30, 2013, 01:18 PM
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Wait... is this an argument over how to set the pitch curve? Who cares? I fly lots of scale maneuvers with a standard pitch curve.
So do I. Since my fbl controllers demand the setup procedure.

Can I ask a question also, just for my edification? I really never thought much about where the actual line is drawn between normal park, sport, and 3d? Even early on I never really considered simple loops and rolls 3d. And practice inverted hovering now just as an extension of my basic skill set. It never occured to me of that as 3d either since I look at it as a basic control skill now. Where actually is the line drawn? Thanks guys! LMH
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Old May 30, 2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by whitehedr View Post
Spykez, You just can't keep your mouth shut can you? This thread is about teaching beginners how to fly. If you want to preach and discuss the virtues of 3D flying by all means start your own thread in the 3D Forum. Don't come here and "CONTAMINATE" the beginners/scale flying thread. As they say on that football pre-game "c'mon man" give us a break, post those kinds of thoughts in the appropriate place.

ROG
0 mid != 3D

See LMH's post.

With durable submicros I say start the way you mean to continue. You can. Now.

TIMTOWTDI.

I however also see Cap's philosophy and the merits of it.

I do not however believe it is the only way. Many learn 0 mid on mCP X's with not too bother.

Many of these people do not do '3D'

Beginners should also be aware of other ways. They can therefore make an informed *choice*.

I shall leave you and your readers there to consider and decide.

Thanks : )
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Last edited by spykez; May 30, 2013 at 02:58 PM. Reason: Footnote: sorry for the abbreviation, i wont edit the text. != means 'not equal'
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