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Old Jul 12, 2013, 07:18 AM
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Dekker's Avatar
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You can wind abcabc/abcabc or ABCABC/ABCABC and terminate them both the same. Just do not mix abc and ABC in a 12n8p motor.
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 07:25 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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United States, FL, West Palm Beach
Joined Aug 2008
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Thank you Dekker, Seems I'm on the right track!
Is there a specific wind calculator for a 4020 or does the #6 work for these?
I need about 1000Kv, the motor was a nib 910Kv 10 turn HK4020, There is a 1100HKIII motor that states a 3t/4t delta, what is 3t/4t? Same as a 3+4?
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 10:13 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Tom,

If you can find another ABC rewind on that motor that has the details on the turn count, termination, and Kv, you can use that in TC5, TC6, or even Simple TC and generate a table for predicting Kv's.

I think that maybe the 3T/4T thing might have something to do with the turns in a slot or the numbers of turns on two adjacent arms. In a dLRK or "distributed" winding where the pairs of adjacent arms make up half of a phase I think they can mix the turn counts so that wind 3T and 4T gives you and effective 3.5T or 7T motor on something like that.

It all goes to those now missing Dr. Okon that I used to be able to see on the old (now long gone) Croco site. Have you seen the Dr. Okon kit motor winding tutorials at Scorpion Motors? Not sure if that will shed any light on it but those are listed here:

http://www.scorpionsystem.com/buildi...ommanderV_50V/

By the way, I did an 18 AWG/1.01mm wire wind on a motor a while back and got to use those wonderful parallel jaw pliers! They worked a charm!

Jack
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 11:17 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Next question is, will a yy halve the winding value or will it be at my guesstimated 1000Kv+- ? 10 turn
Can I simply turn the stator around and ad a half turn or remove a half turn with the wire tails, then terminate if needed?
Quote:
By the way, I did an 18 AWG/1.01mm wire wind on a motor a while back and got to use those wonderful parallel jaw pliers! They worked a charm!
Sweet!
What is a 2group parallel Y/star ??
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 01:14 PM
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United States, MI, Ann Arbor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
Next question is, will a yy halve the winding value or will it be at my guesstimated 1000Kv+- ? 10 turn
Can I simply turn the stator around and ad a half turn or remove a half turn with the wire tails, then terminate if needed?
Sweet!
What is a 2group parallel Y/star ??
For ABC type windings, Y does not yield advantages over D. The whole wire system, is systematical, no functional current is flowing when turned passively. non-ABCs, another story, there are current flowing through the coils when passively turned when terminated as D.
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 02:35 PM
Jack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
Next question is, will a yy halve the winding value or will it be at my guesstimated 1000Kv+- ? 10 turn
Can I simply turn the stator around and ad a half turn or remove a half turn with the wire tails, then terminate if needed?
Sweet!
What is a 2group parallel Y/star ??
If you study the details on this wind it has some nice photos and illustrations of the YY wind and mentions of 5 + 5 and 6 + 7 turns and similar thing. And at one point he mentions that 6 + 7 has 13 wires in a slot.

http://www.scorpionsystem.com/buildi...ld_and_review/

I simply cannot follow what is going on there. He says it is a YY wind but never mentions what the wind is called as far as ABC or dLRK. Nor does he show an image of the winding scheme. But I think what he is doing there is essentially winding those are so that in the end the 12 arm stator is effectively a pair of Y terminated 6 arm stators with an ABC wind on them and they run in parallel.

Does that make any sense to you?

When I have done the half parallel dLRK wind for the DAT-750 motors they were also terminated Y to get the lower Kv. Those winds are terminated with a single Y bundle though so I guess they are not YY motors.

It is frustrating to not be able to grasp some of these principles and the differences in some of the terms that are bantered about without much explanation...

Jack
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 02:42 PM
Jack
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Originally Posted by modisc View Post
For ABC type windings, Y does not yield advantages over D. The whole wire system, is systematical, no functional current is flowing when turned passively. non-ABCs, another story, there are current flowing through the coils when passively turned when terminated as D.
"..For ABC type windings, Y does not yield advantages over D...."

How about if the target Kv you want can be accomplished with about half as many turns with a Y winding as compared to a D winding? Would that not be an advantage? It would mean the wire could be almost twice as large, wouldn't it?

Jack
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 05:54 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Yes Jack, and I understand Modisc, I was not sure of the verbal designation of a double Wye verses a two group parallel Wye and what I think I am going to accomplish by asking the right questions to the right people! And I wanted to do a parallel Wye for the Kv to be in an acceptable range with 1.5mm wire along with being a good torque producing motor for higher pitch lower rpm application for a friend. Here's what I came up with, in the black box
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 08:39 PM
Jack
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One of the things that Ralp Okon said in that how to was that he had a "..6+7 1.32YY. Done with groups of 5 + 5 + 2 zig + 1 zag.." for a total of 13 strand in each slot.

I was sort of trying to get my head around the "zick zack" winding thing at Croco when it disappeared from the face of the Earth.

In his test data there he was running a 10 x 20 speed prop at about 20,000 RPM on 23 Volts. That works out to a 870 RPM/Volt under load. If that can be taken as being 80% or so of the no load RPM that would make that motor have about a 1044 raw or no load Kv. So if you want to do what he is doing it sounds like you're in the ballpark.

Jack
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Old Jul 13, 2013, 01:43 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Where did I go wrong other than not following the wire

Did a beautiful job completely wrong, but I learned something once again!
Dekker mentioned not mixing ABC and abc and I still didn't catch it..
I followed the wire better this time, I believe this is what it needs for an abcabc/abcabc 12n8p parallel wye.
Could one of you kind fellows double check me?
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Old Jul 14, 2013, 01:06 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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So, I set out to do some practice following the wire by doing a dwg.
I think it is still a parallel abc wind, I was more interested in keeping the field polarity's correct. I don't think it would be practical to wind but I was practicing.
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Old Jul 16, 2013, 05:38 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Well its done! I wound it like post 235. Runs well but I'm wondering what the little spikes are on the graph on the watts and amps.. looks like 1047Kv
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Old Jul 17, 2013, 06:30 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Quote:
I was sort of trying to get my head around the "zick zack" winding thing at Croco when it disappeared from the face of the Earth.
I'd like some input on that too! From what I could descern at the time I think there is extra tail length planned in the wind, make the winds, then to ad another wrap the tail is sewn lower between to make an additional turn? zick zack = zig zag?
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Old Jul 17, 2013, 07:15 PM
Jack
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Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
Well its done! I wound it like post 235. Runs well but I'm wondering what the little spikes are on the graph on the watts and amps.. looks like 1047Kv ..<snip image>...
On the spikes, I think those are really very small variations in the Amps but the way the present the data makes it look like something bad is going on.

I see the same thing on the data plots from the Data Recorder app that comes with the eLogger. It has to do with the scaling when displaying the lower values on a graph that also has higher values on it.

The attached images are the same data plotted with the old style where the highest value (RPM) sets the vertical limit and all the others are relative that. So you have to turn off the RPM or set a data cursor on and that will give you a box that display the actual values for where the cursor is at. \

If you can turn the traces on and off selectively, you may find the spikes become invisible.

Jack
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Old Jul 17, 2013, 07:18 PM
Jack
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Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
I'd like some input on that too! From what I could descern at the time I think there is extra tail length planned in the wind, make the winds, then to ad another wrap the tail is sewn lower between to make an additional turn? zick zack = zig zag?
I think that is the German spelling of the word zig zag, google didn't usually translate that when I looked at the old Croco pages so it stayed that way if I remember right...

Jack
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