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Old Feb 17, 2013, 11:27 PM
KF5LDN FPV Junkie!!!
Wizzard033's Avatar
United States, TX, Lubbock
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
Besides being listed as a dealer at the Eagletree website, I noticed that HobbyKing's price for a Guardian 2D/3D is about the same as some other dealers (possibly more after throwing in shipping).

HobbyKing's price is: $63.74
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...tabilizer.html

Towerhobbie's price is: $65.99
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXCUCV&P=ML

HobbyKing does sell other stabilization units that are a good deal less expensive, but they are sold under other names (like the "orange" stabilizer) and often do not have the 2D mode.

I did buy the EEGS for $20 less than other retailers and assumed it was genuine and have had NO issues with any function I've used with it. I've experienced incredible service from Bill and the gang and just wanted insure they weren't being ripped off.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 04:36 AM
Gravity gives sinking feeling
Joined Jun 2011
1,704 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
Thanks!
One note on my experiences (or lack of): I have not actually flown with the Guardian yet (I have yet to build the plane it is for), though I have played with it a lot on the ground and do fly a quadcopter with gyros that have the equivalent of 3D rate mode.

I am also used to reading thick manuals
Shall I pencile you in my book as "another Geek" ?...

Cheers
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 07:48 AM
Foam Temple Pilot
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 08:46 AM
Registered User
United States, OH, Loveland
Joined Feb 2007
358 Posts
Thanks for the wonderful explanation Jay Y. Very easy to understand. This explanation should be included in the manual. Now I know what to expect and what to look for.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 09:20 AM
Mike
United Kingdom, England, Thurstonfield
Joined Feb 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CurrentDude View Post
Hi Mike,

I'm not really qualified enough to make comments on software side but as far as I'm concerned, Guardian's Manual may have been written in Swahili (which I know very little) with touch of plain English here and there.

I did not get any chance to fly today due to other commitments but I'd have tested if the "Level calibration" is set correctly in my Cat. Next week and the week after are my busy weeks (work wise) but I might get out tomorrow morning before work for a quick test.

Suggest please check if you've done the level calibration correctly in your plane.

I agree with you that the best thing is to stick with the devil you know so stay with 3D and built up your confidence. However, if I were you than I'd test 2D at a safe altitude and see if it behaves well. Keep your finger on the toggle switch and change over to 3D as I managed to do yesterday, should you not be happy with 2D.

HTH

Cheers
Thanks a lot for the advise I will double check the level settings but if my AHI is dead level which it is with the plane in a level flying position it should be ok. I will try switching 2D/3D at a safe height as you suggest.
BTW I have got into the habit of using the PC/Usb to set level flight. I will use the toggle switch next time. Who Knows??? it may have a positive effect

Thanks again

Mike
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 12:49 PM
Registered User
Stockholm
Joined Jan 2010
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Hi everyone, i have the folloving problem:

He, mine stabilizer is mountet in the aircraft and all seems to be good.
I have one problem however:
I have conectet "Gain" to ch 6 so i can control amount of stabilisation during flight.
When i turn the nob om the transmitter all rudders move a little??!! (all subtrimm moves). If i try this in the air the plane will probably crasch?
I have checked that all mixers is inhibbited in transmitter.
I have tryed without the stabilizer, servos only.
Ch 6 have no effekt om other channels then.

My radio is ab Hitec Eclipse 7.

What do i do??

// Mats W
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 01:21 PM
Michael
United States, ME, Wells
Joined May 2008
1,075 Posts
Gain, Level, etc.?

Mats W:
You indicated that the rudder movement gets worse when the gain knob is cranked up. That tells me that the Guardian thinks that it is not in the "level" position (if set to 2D mode) or not in the same attitude (if set to 3D mode.)

I could use more information, e.g.:
1. What type of model (e.g. ,you indicated that mixes are turned off in the TX - so delta, elevon, etc. or conventional four-channel plane)?
2.. What mode do you have the Guardian in (2D or 3D) when you see this?
3. You did verify that the "all seems to be good" means that the pots are adjusted to the correct CW / CCW for proper corrective action?
4. You did a level/trim reset?

Without the answers to these initial questions, I can only guess at what might be happening.

One thing you can try is to pick up the model and move it in the three axes until the control surfaces no longer deflect. Then, if in 2D mode, you'll see what the Guardian thinks is "level" or, if in 3D mode, the last attitude you were in when 3D was enabled.

In spite of the number of posts, it really is a rather simple device and there is some very useful info posted on setting it up for a basic plane.

Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats W View Post
Hi everyone, i have the folloving problem:

He, mine stabilizer is mountet in the aircraft and all seems to be good.
I have one problem however:
I have conectet "Gain" to ch 6 so i can control amount of stabilisation during flight.
When i turn the nob om the transmitter all rudders move a little??!! (all subtrimm moves). If i try this in the air the plane will probably crasch?
I have checked that all mixers is inhibbited in transmitter.
I have tryed without the stabilizer, servos only.
Ch 6 have no effekt om other channels then.

My radio is ab Hitec Eclipse 7.

What do i do??

// Mats W
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 02:44 PM
Gravity gives sinking feeling
Joined Jun 2011
1,704 Posts
WOW again

I've tested my Catalina again today but took off in 3D only, on powering up it turned left making almost a 180 degree turn, then with up elevator it sprang up in the air and zero problem after that - it was rock solid in the air then at a safe height switched on 2D - well wings were level no matter what I do...!!!!
Aileron response was poor tho and it was making very wide level turns.

Switched back to 3D, problem disappeared - turns were, steep, wide or whatever I wanted.Tried to land on 2D, Cat simply wanted to glide and stay level. Chnged to 3D, perfect landing. Used two packs with same result. So my settings on the Guardian autopilot was right first time. I therefore, come to the conclusions :

1. Take off & landings on 3D is ideal and 2D is not recommended for a full monty aircraft.

2. 2D flying is ok for beginners, thermal gliders or probably on a very gusty windy conditions.

So why did Cat made a sever left turn on the ground ? I think two prop making high torque at the start of the take off is probable too much for the Guardian to handle + wheel alignment may have something to do as well. I'll recheck and also considering two contra rotating props.

I think today and last Saturday I've seen and experienced the FUTURE in RC flying...same I experienced when started flying electric some quarter of a centuary ago.

@Mat W. - I used channel 6 for gain control in Futaba FF7 with no problem. As suggested above, make sure you've re-calibrated your model with Guardian fixed to a solid platform. Recalibration is a good practice and it does not take too long. But please make sure your model is level on all three axes.

HTH

Cheers
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 02:53 PM
Sopwith Camel's Cousin
Between my tx and crashed aircraft
Joined Mar 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats W View Post
Hi everyone, i have the folloving problem:

He, mine stabilizer is mountet in the aircraft and all seems to be good.
I have one problem however:
I have conectet "Gain" to ch 6 so i can control amount of stabilisation during flight.
When i turn the nob om the transmitter all rudders move a little??!! ....
By "all rudders move", do you mean that the ailerons (roll), elevator (pitch/nick) and rudder (yaw) all move?
My memory is that in some languages, all control surfaces are called rudders.
In German, I believe it is:
Querruder - aileron
Hoehenruder (high(low) rudder?) - elevator
Seitenruder (side(-to-side) rudder?) - rudder
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 03:40 PM
Mike
United Kingdom, England, Thurstonfield
Joined Feb 2012
80 Posts
[QUOTE=CurrentDude;24175064]WOW again

I've tested my Catalina again today but took off in 3D only, on powering up it turned left making almost a 180 degree turn, then with up elevator it sprang up in the air and zero problem after that - it was rock solid in the air then at a safe height switched on 2D - well wings were level no matter what I do...!!!!
Aileron response was poor tho and it was making very wide level turns.

Switched back to 3D, problem disappeared - turns were, steep, wide or whatever I wanted.Tried to land on 2D, Cat simply wanted to glide and stay level. Chnged to 3D, perfect landing. Used two packs with same result. So my settings on the Guardian autopilot was right first time. I therefore, come to the conclusions :

1. Take off & landings on 3D is ideal and 2D is not recommended for a full monty aircraft.

2. 2D flying is ok for beginners, thermal gliders or probably on a very gusty windy conditions.

So why did Cat made a sever left turn on the ground ? I think two prop making high torque at the start of the take off is probable too much for the Guardian to handle + wheel alignment may have something to do as well. I'll recheck and also considering two contra rotating props.


Hi
Did you wiggle the rudder or elevator to reset heading hold before you took off. Just my pennies worth or (worthless). Think you are right I will stick to 3D now that I have got the FunCub up ok its more like"normal" flying without having to twitch the ailerons constantly to make a turn. With regard to the erratic behaviour I experienced using 2D, after reading the manual again i wonder if I have experienced a "brown out" of the gaurdian the symptons seem to be well expalined in the manual. I do have a seperate BEC unit installed but i will check what voltage it is putting out tomorrow. Any way in order to erradicate any possibilty of "noise" or low voltage to the gaurdian i intend to invest in a RX battery pack and try 2D again. Whatever from what I understand a seperate rx pack has got to be a good move.

Mike
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 03:59 PM
Assault the sky
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United States, CO, Denver
Joined Aug 2004
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 06:18 PM
Gravity gives sinking feeling
Joined Jun 2011
1,704 Posts
[QUOTE=METATRON12;24175646]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CurrentDude View Post
WOW again

.... in 2D Aileron response was poor tho and it was making very wide level turns.

Switched back to 3D, problem disappeared - turns were, steep, wide or whatever I wanted.Tried to land on 2D, Cat simply wanted to glide and stay level. Changed to 3D, perfect landing. Used two packs with same result. So my settings on the Guardian autopilot was right first time. I therefore, come to the conclusions :

1. Take off & landings on 3D is ideal and 2D is not recommended for a full monty aircraft.

2. 2D flying is ok for beginners, thermal gliders or probably on a very gusty windy conditions......


Hi
Did you wiggle the rudder or elevator to reset heading hold before you took off. Just my pennies worth or (worthless). Think you are right I will stick to 3D now that I have got the FunCub up ok its more like"normal" flying without having to twitch the ailerons constantly to make a turn. With regard to the erratic behaviour I experienced using 2D, after reading the manual again i wonder if I have experienced a "brown out" of the gaurdian the symptons seem to be well expalined in the manual. I do have a seperate BEC unit installed but i will check what voltage it is putting out tomorrow. Any way in order to erradicate any possibilty of "noise" or low voltage to the gaurdian i intend to invest in a RX battery pack and try 2D again. Whatever from what I understand a seperate rx pack has got to be a good move.

Mike
Hi Mike,

Yes, I did check the direction with Tx before take off. Looking back, my Cat had always shown a tendency to go left during a take off. So that's something I'll look into again.

I think you've hit the nail on the head on "Brown outs" with Spectrum system. Do you use DX6i (older system DSM) or a newer DX6i or higher (DSM2)?

I had pretty bad experience with "Brown outs" in helicopters. After spending £xxxx,amounts, I eventually discovered that the culprit was "Brown outs" so changed over to Futaba 2.4 (FASST system) and my heli never crashed!!!

I believe that Spectrum's DSM2 system is much better but not as good as FASST though. Foolishly or wisely, I've gone again for DX8 & DSM2 (previous version was DSM) system but time will tell.

I think using a separate power system for Rx is a good idea and I've now got a BEC for Rx which I hope to use with Spectrum radio.

So why did Catalina made a flat turn in 2D?

Thinking it over, the answer seems to me obvious. In 2D mode, wings are kept level at all times, including in turns (she hardly banked), so it must be just a rudder turn. Since Cat has virtually no dihedral in the wing hence turns are flat and needed whole sky to make even a 90 degree turn. This is my current hypothesis further flight tests will prove or disprove it.

However, the plus side I can see that in a very gusty condition, I'll not be fighting with aileron stick to keep the wing level. It would, therefore be a powerful tool to have.

Take off and landing are with 3D, even on a gusty condition, I'd use 2D to bring her near home and then change to 3D in the last 10 sec.

Keep us posted Mike on your test flights.

Cheers
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 06:52 PM
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United States, TX, College Station
Joined Jun 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by METATRON12 View Post
So why did Catalina made a flat turn in 2D?

Thinking it over, the answer seems to me obvious. In 2D mode, wings are kept level at all times, including in turns (she hardly banked), so it must be just a rudder turn. Since Cat has virtually no dihedral in the wing hence turns are flat and needed whole sky to make even a 90 degree turn. This is my current hypothesis further flight tests will prove or disprove it.
This should not be true at all - wings are only kept level in 2D mode when no aileron input is provided. Left and right aileron inputs should execute a nice, graceful banked turn (optionally, coordinated with rudder).

That bank angle, though, is configurable. Hook up the PC software and under the 2D Mode tab, check out the stabilization roll angle option - maybe yours is set too small? Gains also play a role here, I think.

My 3D foamy (flat wing, no dihedral) made great 45-60º banked turns in 2D mode, as expected.
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 07:43 PM
Foam Temple Pilot
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Old Feb 18, 2013, 08:38 PM
Michael
United States, ME, Wells
Joined May 2008
1,075 Posts
Also, Check Overall Gain?

If you follow the excellent suggestions already made, and the angle was not set too low, then another thing to check is the overall gain.

If the pots are set very high and/or the overall gain control is set very high, then you can get a quite similar effect; i.e., very flat turns, reluctance to bank, etc.

What usually happens, with very high gains, in 2D mode, is that someone *initiates* a bank, but then removes the aileron input, forgetting that 2D mode is not the normal surface deflection == rate change. Rather, it is more like an automobile steering wheel; i.e., you must hold the aileron throughout the turn.

We fly so instinctively that it is hard to remember that and/or we usually fly with less than full gain.

So, if the earlier excellent suggestions do not pan out, then consider the overall gain and the control surface deflection result difference.

Michael

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayY View Post
Does the Guardian have sufficient yaw gain to counteract the propeller torque on takeoff? In other words, is the maximum rudder deflection under the control of the Guardian as much rudder as you have to apply manually to counteract the propeller torque when you takeoff without the Guardian? If not, you either have to increase the yaw gain on the Guardian or if this is not an option, your idea of counter-rotating propellers to neutralize the torque is a good idea, whether flying with or without the Guardian.

Regarding the flat turns in 2D mode, the Guardian's Stabilization Roll Angle setting, found on the 2D Mode tab of Eagle Tree software, limits how much you can bank the plane, my guess is that you've got it at too low an angle.

Try this test at home. Switch the Guardian to 2D mode, hold the plane straight and level, and apply full left aileron from your TX, the plane's ailerons should fully deflect. Continue to apply full left aileron from TX as you increasingly roll the model to the left. As the plane's roll angle approaches the Guardian's Stabilization Roll Angle, which defaults to 60 degrees, the Guardian will start reducing the aileron deflection even though the transmitter is still sending full left. If the Guardian has enough gain in the roll axis it is capable of reducing the aileron deflection to none if the plane's roll angle has met or surpassed the Guardian's Stabilization Roll Angle.

2D mode is really nice to have when you have it setup properly, and it's not just for beginners or gusty days, it can prevent a crash that otherwise might occur when an experienced pilot becomes briefly disoriented. It's like a panic button, hit it and the plane flies straight and level, giving the pilot extra time to avoid a crash.

P.S. I see that Aerocowboy and I have same idea about the stabilization roll angle being too low, I bet that's the cause.
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