Espritmodel.com Telemetry Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Jun 28, 2013, 04:05 AM
Registered User
Mr Rowl's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Oxford
Joined Jul 2002
192 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Ming View Post
For the best simulation (and thus aid us with muscle memory), it really needs to be linked to a USB joystick. That way pulling back on the joy stick replicates pulling "Up" control on a handle, etc.
Absolutely!

On windows it already supports joysticks/controllers. In settings there's a Joystick tab - hopefully it's fairly obvious how to set things up! There's a video explanation here.

On Android I've just recently started looking at supporting controllers. I have a test application to is able to read all the inputs (except the d-pad at the moment!) from an xbox360 gamepad as well as my R/C transmitter via USB interface, so I'm pretty confident it will work with anything. This will require Android 4 (possibly only Android 3, though hardly any devices run Android 3).
Mr Rowl is online now Find More Posts by Mr Rowl
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jun 28, 2013, 04:11 AM
Registered User
Mr Rowl's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Oxford
Joined Jul 2002
192 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by knlever View Post
Quick Note: Downloaded and installed, (WINE, Ubuntu 10.04 LTS - the Lucid Lynx ) however:

"This build does not support SW rendering no HW support" or something to that effect

Does the fact that I am running a Dell D800 with a 32 MB Nvidia N96 type card anything to do with it
Probably! I've never run it on Wine myself - just heard that it can be made to work.

By default the Windows installation uses OpenGL ES 2, but you can switch it to OpenGL ES 1, which has slightly lower requirements. To do this, open the app.icf file in the installation directory and change the SysGlesVersion=2 line to 1.

Another thing that can cause problems on really low end video cards is the texture sizes for the panoramic sceneries. If it runs with the 3D sceneries but not the panoramas, then go into

C:\Program Files (x86)\PicaSim\SystemData\Panoramas\Flatland

(on Windows), and resize (scale) each of the images there to 1024x1024.
Mr Rowl is online now Find More Posts by Mr Rowl
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 28, 2013, 08:32 PM
Just shut up and build!
Sri Lanka
Joined Mar 2010
642 Posts
Installed PicaSim on phone

Installed Pica sim on my Android phone with 3.5 inch screen, and it works fine, moments of inertia and so on seem perfectly OK for the glider, so my apologies. Question is how to install your control line simulator will try on my Android device next.


Simulating Tethered Flight

Would you be up for another challenge? It's called tethered flight, and something that I am very interested in experimenting with, being a very low cost alternative to R/C. It has been done before, of course, but the idea is basically an R/C airframe, with the motor and servos, but no reciever and radio: control is effected via a long electrical wire carrying power and control inputs.

Where does this all relate to the C/L sim: well, if you could simulate a limited length wire with its weight as well, and the sudden jerk when the model reaches its limits, I could test the concept right here on my PC ( or Android) and see how it works.

I guess you could use the control line model and increase the weight of the lines and add 3 channel control ... hmmnn seems workable.

I have nothing but admiration for C++ programmers - I myself have toyed with the idea of writing a sim, but probably in HTML 5, anything else is too difficult.

BTW what about HTML 5 "on the cloud"? Instant upgrades and portability are big pluses with this set up. You could then have sim in your browser, something that we would all love I am sure, and you then have the added joy of testing and fixing bugs on four different browsers as well as Javascript.

Can't be worse than C++!

Update:


Installed Picasim on a 7" tab. Works fine, and the C/L part is really nice, with slack strings and all that. The control lines even catch on the edge of the mound if the plane disappears behind it, really neat programming.
knlever is offline Find More Posts by knlever
Last edited by knlever; Jun 30, 2013 at 05:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 30, 2013, 09:22 AM
I was 1eyed But I fixed that
HUMPHREY1957's Avatar
Central Coast NSW Australia
Joined Nov 2007
1,516 Posts
Thanks Waz for putting a link my way.

Need a USB cord for my transmitter now. And some way of fixing a handle.
HUMPHREY1957 is online now Find More Posts by HUMPHREY1957
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 03, 2013, 06:23 PM
Registered User
Mr Rowl's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Oxford
Joined Jul 2002
192 Posts
Sorry for the slightly slow response!

Yes - the system should almost work as it is for tethered R/C flight - the only problem is that the simulator has hard-coded into it the requirement that the lines be taught in order to have control. I could easily change that, and also expose some of the tether properties etc so it could be tuned to work better for what you're thinking of...
Mr Rowl is online now Find More Posts by Mr Rowl
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 07, 2013, 07:33 PM
Just shut up and build!
Sri Lanka
Joined Mar 2010
642 Posts
Yes I would like you to modify the program as mentioned, and also compile for Ubuntu, or maybe list the dependencies to run it in WINE.

Several things to consider :
  • The weight of the cable
  • What happens when the end of the cable is reached - does the model just whip around into a crash?
  • Attachment point - attach control/power cable to the wing, the tail, or underside?
  • What is the maximum length of the cable?
  • How do you handle the model crossing the path of its own cable?

I did several more C/L flights, with a glider and the F-18 Hornet. It just flies in circles but the Hornet for some reason is very spectacular in flight.
knlever is offline Find More Posts by knlever
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 08, 2013, 06:01 AM
Registered User
Mr Rowl's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Oxford
Joined Jul 2002
192 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by knlever View Post
Yes I would like you to modify the program as mentioned
OK - I'll have another update done soon and get it done for that.

I'm not going to include a tethered R/C plane in the distribution as such, but will send you/post the customised files so you can add this plane.

Quote:
and also compile for Ubuntu, or maybe list the dependencies to run it in WINE.
Unfortunately, I'm using Marmalade to help get it run under Windows, Android and iOS, and that doesn't support natively running on linux (I suspect they could add this trivially, as there's evidence their system supports it, but there's not enough demand for it to justify the additional support costs for them - and Marmalade support is not good as it is).

Quote:
[*]The weight of the cable[*]Attachment point - attach control/power cable to the wing, the tail, or underside?[*]What is the maximum length of the cable?
It's already possible to set the attachment point anywhere you like.
The cable length is determined by the relative positions of the plane and observer when it's reset/relaunched (that explains why it's sometimes a bit weird if you change plane, but don't relaunch!).
The weight of the cable is included in the sim, but I need to expose this - similarly with the drag, and simulation quality settings, which are very much set up for low/mid-range mobiles at the moment. Better devices or on PC the cable simulation could be a lot better (and less springy).

Quote:
[*]How do you handle the model crossing the path of its own cable?
I had problems with cable collision, so disabled it, and the current collision with the ground is a bit of a hack! I want to get cable collision working properly - but it's not high up on my list of priorities...

Cheers - Danny
Mr Rowl is online now Find More Posts by Mr Rowl
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 08, 2013, 05:40 PM
Registered User
Mr Rowl's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Oxford
Joined Jul 2002
192 Posts
Tethered RC flight in PicaSim (1 min 46 sec)


It should be in a released version in a couple of days... so if there's anything you'd like adding, let me know!

Hmm.. it occurred to me that it should be possible to set up a glider like a kite using this!
Mr Rowl is online now Find More Posts by Mr Rowl
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 09, 2013, 10:49 AM
Registered User
Canada
Joined Nov 2000
6,838 Posts
Amazing.. quite an achievement.
However it does beg the question: Who and what for ?
Nothing beats or is easier than simply 'trying it' .. in real life
As some help (?) The sim examples I watched bear No resemblance to Controline reality, beyond there being control lines in the view.
The pretend Models behave as if on rails.. sadly they Do Not, in real life.
Far from it actually :-)

Round the Pole Flying (Tethered) has been around, albeit semi active for Decades.
Kinda fun to watch .. but that's all one does once the model is released. Although some remote motor control sophistication has surfaced. One fellow ran a wee airline as tether thru which compressed air from a Cyl/tank provided the thrust/jet for his F4 model. Clever.
Why is a sim of this even interesting let alone worthwhile?
Beyond the challenge of building it.
Clearly this Is your hobby... so good on you. But large appeal, I think not.
Bare is offline Find More Posts by Bare
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 09, 2013, 11:15 AM
Registered User
Mr Rowl's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Oxford
Joined Jul 2002
192 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bare View Post
However it does beg the question: Who and what for ?
Nothing beats or is easier than simply 'trying it' .. in real life
Yes - that's a good question. There's a few answers...

Firstly - it's not true that it's easy to try it in real life - certainly not for people who aren't already into flying model planes. Mostly the sim is about gliders, and I've had a few emails from people saying it's helped/inspired them to go out and fly for real, which is very satisfying for me!

Secondly - the sim is mostly for mobile devices. It lets people indulge their real-world hobby when they can't for real - waiting for a bus, when it's raining etc etc. And also fantasy flying of planes you don't (or can't!) have. So it's a game too, which is fine.

Thirdly - for the control line aspect - I put that in because it was only a minor addition to tie the pieces together. And also I have really fond memories of when I used to fly C/L many years ago.

I agree with your "nothing beats" comment though. But the sim is not competing against real life - there's room for both.

Quote:
As some help (?) The sim examples I watched bear No resemblance to Controline reality, beyond there being control lines in the view.
The pretend Models behave as if on rails.. sadly they Do Not, in real life.
Far from it actually :-)
If they're not behaving right, that's (I think) largely due to model setup, and the fact it's been a long time since I flew C/L. Also the Extra plane is significantly lighter than I'd expect a real C/L plane to be.

But in any case, they certainly do not fly as if on rails - the simulation handles the weight/tension in and drag on the lines (including with wind), and it's a pretty full 3D simulation of the plane too - with effects like the elevator inducing a rolling moment, and gyroscopic effects from the prop/engine. Try to do too much directly overhead and the plane will lose control/drop out of the sky. Similarly if there's significant wind and you try to do too much upwind.

Hopefully you might be able to try it and give some more detailed feedback. All I can say is that for me it certainly brings back the feeling of flying C/L (but without the dizziness).

The Tethered video is Tethered remote control, because it was mentioned higher up in this thread.

Quote:
Clearly this Is your hobby... so good on you. But large appeal, I think not.
I think one could say the same about real C/L!! That's no criticism of C/L - having done this I'm itching to get my old engines/plans down - though I think I'd be frowned on for flying in the local park like kids used to do when I was young.
Mr Rowl is online now Find More Posts by Mr Rowl
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 14, 2013, 06:54 PM
Just shut up and build!
Sri Lanka
Joined Mar 2010
642 Posts
Just saw this - it's really nice to see, thanks. Some comments:

It's OK about not having it in Linux I will use it on Android, but one other option is running it in the browser. You seem to like programming challenges so how about writing it to run in a browser there is something called Web GL out there, I think. No hurry though.

Why does the model seem to hang on its tail? I thought a model like a Piper Cub or Beech Bonanza would cruise along nicely in non-aerobatic flight, with the weight of the cable pulling the model downwards and sideways somewhat. Are you performing '3d' flight? I see you got the end of tether behavior dialled in nicely.

I can't see how you would code the cable collision, it seems to be an impossible task, cable tension, weight, cable position: aerodynamic effects and so on have to be taken into account.
But then you are the expert.

As for the CL version, it does seem pretty realistic, as I do have CL experience from way back. The loss of tension and subsequent slack line crash is frighteningly realistic.
knlever is offline Find More Posts by knlever
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 15, 2013, 06:38 AM
Registered User
Mr Rowl's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Oxford
Joined Jul 2002
192 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by knlever View Post
Just saw this - it's really nice to see, thanks. Some comments:
Why does the model seem to hang on its tail? I thought a model like a Piper Cub or Beech Bonanza would cruise along nicely in non-aerobatic flight, with the weight of the cable pulling the model downwards and sideways somewhat. Are you performing '3d' flight?
Yes - at the moment the only released powered R/C plane is set up for 3D, so the CG is as far back as possible - not quite neutral when inverted, but almost, and it hovers quite easily. I have two other planes partially set up but not really ready...

Quote:
As for the CL version, it does seem pretty realistic, as I do have CL experience from way back. The loss of tension and subsequent slack line crash is frighteningly realistic.
Great
Mr Rowl is online now Find More Posts by Mr Rowl
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2013, 06:59 PM
Just shut up and build!
Sri Lanka
Joined Mar 2010
642 Posts
3D flying is great - if is done with a jet: I saw a video once of an SU27 out there.
knlever is offline Find More Posts by knlever
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sold 22 R/C and C/L Engines Jacobsdad Aircraft - Fuel - Engines and Accessories (FS/W) 6 May 27, 2013 03:48 PM
Sold Phoenix 4 R/C Flight Simulation rfk Aircraft - General - Miscellaneous (FS/W) 1 May 25, 2013 09:29 AM
Question 2Two L-C Filter in Parallel? doonunder FPV Talk 0 Mar 27, 2013 03:41 AM
Whoops! Sold Sold PLANS ONLY C/L "The Streamliner" C/L Gonnacrash Control Line 0 Mar 21, 2008 09:26 PM