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Old Jan 08, 2014, 06:52 PM
Great Quad & Good Cigar 😎
Old Man Zzzz's Avatar
United States, CO, Calhan
Joined May 2013
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Originally Posted by HappySundays View Post
The link is a link to Ran's own Dropbox page. This is something that can't be shared. Not in this way anyway. So don't bother clicking on the link
I was able to open it and see all the pictures.....
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Old Jan 08, 2014, 07:23 PM
Enjoying the sunshine
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Australia, NSW, Sydney
Joined Feb 2011
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Originally Posted by Old Man Zzzz View Post
I was able to open it and see all the pictures.....
Ran updated the link. It didn't work the first time
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Old Feb 07, 2014, 07:06 PM
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United States, CA, Sunnyvale
Joined Dec 2006
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All credit and massive thanks to Alain for turning my crummy pencil drawings into real plans.

It's really quite amazing. HappySundays wrote the flight controller code in Australia, Alain created the plans in France, and I built the model in the U.S.A. None of us have ever actually met, and I don't even know what they look like, but here we are a team. So now everyone on the planet can benefit from this work, and it is all absolutely free. We live in incredible times...
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Old Feb 07, 2014, 07:39 PM
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United States, IN, Granger
Joined Jan 2003
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Ran D
That is just way to awesome .... a world wide joint effort to bring the model world a first class VTOL , that a lot of modelers with modest ability can build for themselves and at a relatively cheap investment .

All files downloaded and stored for a retirement day

This feat you guys pulled off is a class act ,, my hat off to you guys
Now what are you going to do next

Thanks
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Old Mar 02, 2014, 01:33 PM
AMA 697691
Rochester, NY, USA
Joined Aug 2000
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R.D.,

I just saw your video on YouTube here from January 14th and found the thread.

Great job!
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Old Apr 09, 2014, 04:24 PM
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Joined Jan 2005
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Ran,
It's great to see plans for your XC-142.
I am building Leadfeather's F35, but since he is not using the KK2.1, I am using your manual
and settings as a starting point for my F35. I know that you are using ailerons and elevator
for forward flight. I will be using elevons, but I don't know how to set up the mixing in the KK2 to handle elevons. I think it will be something like you are handling flaperons but I am not sure. Also, I am using outputs 1 thru 3 for the motors, 4 for yaw (rudder) servo that tilts right and left, 6 for transition from hover to FFF, 7 for right elevon servo, and 8 for left elevon servo. Would you please explain how I can set this up?
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Old Apr 09, 2014, 05:14 PM
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United States, CA, Sunnyvale
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Originally Posted by RETIREDGUYKC View Post
Ran,
It's great to see plans for your XC-142.
I am building Leadfeather's F35, but since he is not using the KK2.1, I am using your manual
and settings as a starting point for my F35. I know that you are using ailerons and elevator
for forward flight. I will be using elevons, but I don't know how to set up the mixing in the KK2 to handle elevons. I think it will be something like you are handling flaperons but I am not sure. Also, I am using outputs 1 thru 3 for the motors, 4 for yaw (rudder) servo that tilts right and left, 6 for transition from hover to FFF, 7 for right elevon servo, and 8 for left elevon servo. Would you please explain how I can set this up?
Make sure you start by reading the users manual. It can be found at the end of the first post in this thread:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1972686

Also, read through the programming template that is in the form of an Excel spreadsheet. It can also be found at the end of the first post.

What you are doing all sounds very possible. The OpenAero2-VTOL firmware is set up as one big mixer, so something like elevons is easy. Each output/servo is independent of all the others, and they are all set up in the same way, so once you know how to program one of them, you know how to program all of them.

For something like an elevon servo you just go into the mixer menu for OUT7 and set the P1 and P2 elevator volume to something like 40. Then you set the P1 and P2 aileron volume to something like 60. That is all there is to it. If the elevator moves in the wrong direction, reverse the sign on the elevator volume. likewise, if the aileron moves in the wrong direction, reverse the sign on the aileron volume. OUT8, the other elevon servo will be exactly the same except the sign will be different on either the aileron or elevator volume.

Adjusting the elevator will never mess up the ailerons, and adjusting OUT7 will never mess up OUT8. That is the beauty of this architecture.

Things like motors are a bit more complicated just because that is the nature of a tri-copter. All 3 of the motors will include 100% throttle in the mix. The two front motors will include about 20% roll/ailerons in the mix, but one will be opposite in sign from the other. All 3 motors will include pitch/elevator in the mix, but the amounts and signs will be different front to back. Typically the fronts will have about 10% pitch input and the back will be -20%, but that depends on your exact CG location, motor size, etc.

Motors will also include stability feedback for pitch, roll, and possibly vertical acceleration if you want altitude damping. Motors will also include Autolevel if you want it. For all of the stability feedback in pitch you will want to use the scaled option. For stability feedback in roll you will simply turn the Gyro and Autolevel on for P1, but leave it off for P2. P2 is for forward flight, and I assume you don't need stabalization feedback on the motors for forward flight, just throttle.

I gather your two front motors will tilt, but your rear motor will only move side to side for yaw control. That means that your throttle volume for the front motors will be 100% for both P1 and P2. the throttle volume in the tail will be 100% for P1 and 0% for P2 because the tail motor won't run in forward flight. You will want to use the Sine transition curve on the tail rotor to match the lift of the front rotors as they tilt. Some adjustment of the 3 point offset curve may be necessary to trim pitch throughout the transition.

You will need to set up your P, I, D, and Autolevel parameters for P1 (hover mode) and P2 Forward Flight mode. Typically P2 is set up as all zero's but some aircraft benefit from stability feedback in forward flight as well. In that case it is usually P only, and the values are much smaller.

You are not building to a fixed recipee. Adjustments will have to be made along the way. As far as I know you will be the first to build Leadfeathers F-35 with the KK2 and OpenAero2-VTOL. It looks to be a very durable airframe, and that is a great start.

I can't really tell you what to do for every parameter, and I would not be helping you if I did. After you read the manual, you will begin to understand. As you start playing with it you will learn even more. Then you can ask more specific questions.
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Old Apr 10, 2014, 08:01 AM
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Joined Jan 2005
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Thanks Ran,
I have read through most of your manual and I used your template for my
starting point settings. I will make the settings that you suggest.
Another couple of questions, is there a setting that points the aileron and elevator stick movements to OUT7 and OUT8 in P2? Also, how do you get to
the menu that sets the type, tricopter, quadcopter,etc?
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Old Apr 10, 2014, 10:24 AM
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United States, CA, Sunnyvale
Joined Dec 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RETIREDGUYKC View Post
Thanks Ran,
I have read through most of your manual and I used your template for my
starting point settings. I will make the settings that you suggest.
Another couple of questions, is there a setting that points the aileron and elevator stick movements to OUT7 and OUT8 in P2? Also, how do you get to
the menu that sets the type, tricopter, quadcopter,etc?
The OUT1-8 Mixer Menues are used to define the elevator and aileron stick volume in both P1 and P2.

There is no menu that defines the type of aircraft. The philosophy of the interface is that you pick a given motor/servo/output and define what you want it to do. That could be a motor ESC in a quad-copter or an elevon servo on a flying wing glider. Every output has the capability to do anything and everything.

Here's a little secret, so don't tell anyone... The OpenAero2-VTOL firmware turns the KK2 into a universal flight controller that can be used for anything. It is similar to a Guardian for fixed wing use. It is a multi-copter flight controller. It could even be used to dampen the oversteer on your RC dune buggy (which works really well by the way).

It's true, dedicated fixed wing flight controllers, like the Guardian, have some fancy modes that OpenAero2-VTOL doesn't have, but OpenAero2-VTOL also has some power and flexibility that they don't have. It is also true that various dedicated multicopter Flight controllers have some modes and capabilities that OpenAero2-VTOL doesn't have. Mostly this relates to hardware that is not part of the KK2, like GPS, Magnetometers, pressure based altimiter, etc. There are also some subtle things in the code that might make some of those other flight controllers better for doing things like multi-copter aerobatics. That part of the code is continually being improved though.

The P1 (Hover mode) and P2 (Forward Flight mode) can equally be called, aerobatic mode and trainer mode. I sometimes use mine for "the mode that I know works mode" and the "crazy experement that might crash my plane mode".

The OpenAero2-VTOL firmware is potentially a first step in a new direction where we take almost all of the complex mixing, curves, etc. out of your TX and put them in the aircraft. Doing so could eventually fully integrate control, stability, data logging, and more. It will likely all end up inside the RX at some point. Then we will just need a better way to communicate with it. Something like a wireless dongle that can plug into your PC, or is built into your TX could do the job. A little bluetooth like link would allow a much richer user interface, but still give you full access at the flying field without a PC.
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Old Apr 10, 2014, 03:10 PM
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Joined Jan 2005
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Ran,
I have got the elevons working corectly, all the motors work correctly in the correct direction, but I have one problem that I connot fix.
I have the transition switch on the 3 position flap on my DX7, but it does not
operate the transition servo (on output 6 ). When I operate the switch, the
yaw servo moves. I know you bypassed the KK2 and controlled the transition
directly from the receiver, but I like the way that I can slow the servo speed
by going thru the KK2. I have played around with some of the settings, but cannot seem to find a way to correct this. The other part of the transition
switch seems to work fine, that is in P1 Hover mode, the rudder stick make the
yaw servo move correctly and in P2 Fwd Flight mode it turns off the rudder
stick so it does not move the yaw servo.
Do you have any suggestions on how I can fix this? Is the problem in the Output 4 (yaw servo )settings or the Output 6(transition servo) settings?
Any help will be appreciated.
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Old Apr 10, 2014, 04:22 PM
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Ran D. St. Clair's Avatar
United States, CA, Sunnyvale
Joined Dec 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RETIREDGUYKC View Post
Ran,
I have got the elevons working corectly, all the motors work correctly in the correct direction, but I have one problem that I connot fix.
I have the transition switch on the 3 position flap on my DX7, but it does not
operate the transition servo (on output 6 ). When I operate the switch, the
yaw servo moves. I know you bypassed the KK2 and controlled the transition
directly from the receiver, but I like the way that I can slow the servo speed
by going thru the KK2. I have played around with some of the settings, but cannot seem to find a way to correct this. The other part of the transition
switch seems to work fine, that is in P1 Hover mode, the rudder stick make the
yaw servo move correctly and in P2 Fwd Flight mode it turns off the rudder
stick so it does not move the yaw servo.
Do you have any suggestions on how I can fix this? Is the problem in the Output 4 (yaw servo )settings or the Output 6(transition servo) settings?
Any help will be appreciated.
I think I might know what you mean. So you have the "Transition:" value in the "Receiver Setup" menu set to some value other than zero like 5? The more common way to handle this is to set the "Transition:" value to 0 and use the slow function in the DX7 flap menu. There is more than one way to do it though.

The simplest method is to use the 3 point offset curve on OUT6, your transition, or tilt servo. In the OUT6 Mixer menu, set the P1 Offset to -100, P1.n% of Trans: to 15%, P1.n Offset: to -70, and P2 Offset: to 100. The values and polarities may change depending on your servo linkage, but that should get things moving so you can adjust from there. Make sure all the other inputs are 0/OFF including all gyro, and autolevel stability factors. Make sure the "Device" is set to "Servo" and not "Motor".

The yaw servo on OUT4 could be moving for lots of reasons, but I will guess at the most likely. Make sure your P1 and P2 Rudder volume are set to the same value, probably 100 or -100. Make sure all your other inputs are 0/OFF. Make sure the "Device" is set to "Servo" and not "Motor". Make sure your offset values are all set to 0, except for the "P1.n% of trans:" which can be left at the default of 50 and won't matter anyway if all the offsets are 0.

Make sure your Pitch, Roll, and Yaw trim in the flight profiles menus Profile 1 and Profile 2 are all set to zero. Those are rarely used but you might have changed them accidentially.

Hopefully that solves your problem. If it does not, I recommend you fill out the "User Template" in the program template spreadsheet and attach that to your post. Even if you never give it to anyone else, I think you will find it invaluable to keep a record of your settings for your own purposes. It is a bit of a pain to go through the menu's and list all the values the first time, but it saves a lot of guessing later on.

One last comment. Each output is independent of the other outputs. If you have a problem with output 6 (for example) it will never be related to the programming of output 4 (for example). This "disentangling" of outputs was a primary goal of this architecture as it is one of the things I HATE about the way most transmitters are programmed.
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Old Apr 11, 2014, 07:05 PM
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Joined Jan 2005
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Ran,
Thanks for the info. I made the changes and now everything works fine.
I really appreciate all the help you have given me. would never have got to
this point without it. I plan to make a donation to Happy Sunday for make a
great firmware available for all of us to use.
Is it best to use the trim functions in P1 and P2 or the TX trims for all trim
settings? Also, how can I increase the servo travel of the transition servo
( Output 6)? If I can't increase it, I will have to get a retract( 180 degree travel )
servo.
For the flight testing, I am going to switch back to Leadfeather's F-35 thread
since it was his design that I used. I hope you will follow my progress there.
I may need your help in getting it trimed out.
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Old Apr 11, 2014, 09:52 PM
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Ran D. St. Clair's Avatar
United States, CA, Sunnyvale
Joined Dec 2006
917 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RETIREDGUYKC View Post
Ran,
Thanks for the info. I made the changes and now everything works fine.
I really appreciate all the help you have given me. would never have got to
this point without it. I plan to make a donation to Happy Sunday for make a
great firmware available for all of us to use.
Is it best to use the trim functions in P1 and P2 or the TX trims for all trim
settings? Also, how can I increase the servo travel of the transition servo
( Output 6)? If I can't increase it, I will have to get a retract( 180 degree travel )
servo.
For the flight testing, I am going to switch back to Leadfeather's F-35 thread
since it was his design that I used. I hope you will follow my progress there.
I may need your help in getting it trimed out.
You should never use the TX trims. OK, you can use them sometimes, but I don't recommend it. If you are using any "I" feedback then don't use the TX trims at all. It will cause the gyros to drift rapidly to one side. As it says in the manual, trim with mechanical linkages first, then the offsets in the OUT1-8 Mixer menu, and almost never with the TX. The trim values in the Profile 1 and 2 menus are only on Autolevel on Pitch and Roll, and they can create an offset for the gyro feedback on yaw. They are not trims or sub-trims as they are called in some transmitters.

You say you don't have enough servo travel. Have you maxed out the offset values at 125, and -125? That should get you 1ms to 2ms pulse width which is pretty wide. Some radio systems can go a bit wider, but not much. At some point the output of the servo becomes rather non-linear just due to the geometry of the linkage. Also, beware using retract servo's. The ones I am familiar with have a fixed 180 degree travel with just 2 output positions. They are not linear like a regular servo. You may need to adjust the mechanical advantage of your linkage.

Please go back and read the manual. I can tell by our questions you need another look at it. I don't mind answering questions, but I can't begin to cover the breadth of information that is in the manual. It's the questions you haven't asked that are answered in the manual, and there are lots of them.
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