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Old Feb 16, 2013, 04:07 AM
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Brushed vs brushless... and learning to fly...

Hi altogether...

When I started the hobby the first plane that I really flew was a Multiplex Minimag powered with the standard brushed Permax 400. Learning to fly on that plane was fun and challenging, but relaxing.
After putting couple dozen flights on her I had upgraded the Minimag to a 1400kv brushless setup and after flying this for a couple of months I really have to say that my flying skills got worse.

What I'm was doing wasn't flying to me anymore. It was s more raging around a totally overpowered plane. I don't know what's your opinion on this, but learning to fly rc planes for me always was based on the fascination of aerodynamics.
Thumbing around that brushless Minimag isn't fascinating anymore... it feels more like you could take off the wing and fly the drivetrain with tailfeathers only.

What was making me thinking of this all was the fact why I put a brushless setup in it. Back then (still brushed driven) I gave the tx to a friend who was doing the hobby for little longer. He was handlaunching it, throttled up and tried to gain altitude in a 30-40 degrees angle. Needless to say it ended up in a stall and nose landing. He well thinks he's a good flyer, and looking at him raging around his 3D plane might make one think he really is, but I now know that he might be good in controlling throttle and maybe has quick reactions, but not in flying...

So what's your opinion on this? Are you more fascinated by thumbing around sheer power or by "real" aerodynamics?

And why there is so few choice in really Speed400-like brushless replacements? Most brushless "replacement" offers give you loads more power where it isn't needed at all and mostly results in the above-mentioned phenomenon...
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 04:44 AM
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United States, NJ, Pennsville
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Speed 400 motors have been replaced by a thing called the throttle. Learn to use it.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 04:53 AM
darn you, kakka carrot cake.
derpron's Avatar
Australia, WA, Perth
Joined Aug 2012
1,018 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stemo99 View Post
Speed 400 motors have been replaced by a thing called the throttle. Learn to use it.
that was harsh. if you dont want it to go as fast you can always change props.

it is fun to fly scale and bleed up altitude instead of pointing the nose up and giving it full power. but i would rather be able to have unlimited vertical
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 04:58 AM
Teddy Ong
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Joined Nov 2012
562 Posts
If you don't want the extra power and the same thrust, switch to a lower KV one and a bigger prop. That'll give you less speed.

Or get a less powerful motor

Or underpower it by loading it with camera and stuff
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 05:09 AM
Wake up, feel pulse, be happy!
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United States, AK, Fairbanks
Joined Aug 2009
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Quote:
And why there is so few choice in really Speed400-like brushless replacements? Most brushless "replacement" offers give you loads more power where it isn't needed at all and mostly results in the above-mentioned phenomenon...
Errrrrrrrrrrrr..... I've seen a lot of illogical statements on RCG, but I think this one is vying hard for the #1 spot. From a technical standpoint, it simply makes no sense at all.

A brushless replacement is only as powerful as you choose. The first, most obvious "solution" to your "problem" would be to use a smaller motor and power system in the first place. There's no reason you can't run a small brushless motor and have exactly the same, or even LESS, power than the brushed Speed 400. Ain't it great? You can have as LITTLE power as you want!

Next, you can simply run a smaller prop. Too much thrust and speed? Prop down until the plane is diluted enough for your tastes. Finally, if all else fails and the plane is still just too powerful, throttle back. No one said you HAVE to use your whole throttle range. Just go from 0% to 50% or something.

I recall seeing someone with an attitude similar to this in a Slow Stick thread eons ago. Their claim (horror story?) was that "brushless motors were too powerful for a Slow Stick" and would rip the wings off. They simply couldn't swallow the idea of a brushless setup being equal to, or less powerful than, a stock brushed-n-geared Speed 400/300.

Personally, I like my planes to carry more power than they need. Modern equipment is so ridiculously light for its power level that there's no major weight penalty. I would rather have enough power to accelerate vertically and never have to use it.... than need it and never have it. I do put a lot of value in learning to manipulate aerodynamics, but it's not worth losing an airframe to some freak situation that I otherwise could have powered out of.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 05:47 AM
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Ehm, think this is going wrong direction...

I'm not helpless messing around with prop sizes and all this, and i already solved this topic for me by using another motor and prop combo.
I just wanted to start a discussion if strong powered planes maybe ain't the best way to learn flying.

@ C4H10: i do know all this, but facing the stiuation that there are still loads of planes for sale around designed for Speed400s i had a close look to motor combos which are proactively offered by traders and shops as a suitable replacement. Majority is offering double, if not three times the thrust of the motor the model was originally designed for.

Thus giving the plane totally different flight characteristics, maybe not very suitable for a beginner. Back then the brushless replacement i was offered by my local hobby store made the Minimag from a relaxed buzzing around flyer into an an angry Hornet.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:12 AM
Canadian Bacon
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Kingston, Canada
Joined Jun 2004
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Most of my planes fly around at cruising speed at about half throttle or less. But it's there when I need it. I've seen more planes ruined by lack of power in a bad spot than over powered.

Gord.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:28 AM
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There's flying "on the wing" and the there's 3D. There's no right or wrong, it's all for fun. I'm not a big speed freak, but I like hovering and high-alpha flying, and for that you need raw power.

You're certainly not the only one to have experienced the transition from an "adequately" powered airframe to one that's overpowered. I got that on my very first plane, an EasyStar. Flew it for months on the stock Permax 400, and later upgraded to a roaring 2200 Kv inrunner.

I learned to fly on that stock EasyStar, and enjoyed the heck out of it. I can still fly it like that on the more powerful motor if I choose.

I have a bin full of unused brushed motors that came with various ARFs. You're welcome to them.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:49 AM
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Staffs, UK
Joined Nov 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticranger View Post
Thus giving the plane totally different flight characteristics, maybe not very suitable for a beginner. Back then the brushless replacement i was offered by my local hobby store made the Minimag from a relaxed buzzing around flyer into an an angry Hornet.
Seems to me that it's easy to get the plane with a more powerful motor to fly as you want. You just use the throttle. Far from messing up your learning to fly it teaches you valuable additional lessons about the use of that often neglected control. Why is that a problem ?

Plus the ability to occasionally fly like a hooligan when you feel like is an additional benefit and probably extends the life of a trainer by stopping you getting bored with it .

Steve
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 07:54 AM
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United States, NE, Kearney
Joined Dec 2011
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Sorta along the lines of what other guys are saying, "use your left hand... on the throttle".

I have a powered sailplane that I ripped the firewall out of twice doing the motor installation.
I finally threw a wattmetter on the critter and saw I was making right at 200 watts; a ton more than I needed.

My solution was simple... set the high end throttle endpoint so that the wattmeter read 100 watts, and that's how I fly the POS, and keep the firewall in place. (kewl thing is I get about 28 minutes of motor time off the 1800 mAh 3 cell by limiting the top end power).
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 09:16 AM
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Joined Mar 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DustBen View Post
Sorta along the lines of what other guys are saying, "use your left hand... on the throttle".
+1 part of the skill of flying RC models is throttle control. For virtually all e-power planes have fully proportional throttle control. Learn to use throttle as a proportional control just like ailerons, rudder or elevator, rather than an on-off switch.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 10:09 AM
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United States, CA, Garden Grove
Joined Oct 2000
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Many low time fliers take off full-throttle in two feet and carom around the field as if having a tiger by the tail, focused on their model and not aware of others taking off and landing. Eventually they get somewhat in control and continue to do endless boring-to-watch high speed passes in the middle of other models flying the racetrack pattern. It's a relief when they crash or go home.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 10:30 AM
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United States, TX, Houston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flypaper 2 View Post
Most of my planes fly around at cruising speed at about half throttle or less. But it's there when I need it. I've seen more planes ruined by lack of power in a bad spot than over powered.

Gord.
The point of learning to fly on underpowered airplanes is that you learn not to put them into a "bad spot" to begin with. The point the OP is trying to make is that a new flier can use excess power as a crutch.

At this point it would be useless to argue the use of underpowered trainers. Lots of people missed the whole "brushed" part of the electric hobby and learned to fly on ridiculously over powered airplanes, they would not know the difference anyways.
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 10:36 AM
rookie
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Canada, SK, Saskatoon
Joined Dec 2012
546 Posts
Not so sure why everyone seems to slam the OP.
Using tons of over powered air plane to make up for sloppy flying does not seem cool.
I just bought a HZ super cub month or so ago. I'm learning on my own. To take off I just open throttle fully and full up elevator and it just leaps into the air. At abought 20 feet I start to level off then after some more altitude I throttle back to 50% and cruse around. Not any skill there no need for rudder input just up and away.
I'm sure the planes power level is more equal to a warbird than a cub.
Now for me this has been a good thing as if it was more scale powered I would never get it off the ground by my self so all is good.
So my feelings are that everyone should have a more scale powered aircraft in there fleat
so they can keep thee skills up and not just rely on brut power to overcome there sloppiness
Wilf
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Old Feb 16, 2013, 11:21 AM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
JetPlaneFlyer's Avatar
Aberdeen
Joined Mar 2006
11,190 Posts
Sorry, those arguing for low powered planes.. I just don't see your point at all if you want to fly in a scale like way then just use an appropriate amount of power, the throttle is proportional.

Reference the point made above
Quote:
To take off I just open throttle fully and full up elevator and it just leaps into the air
If you don't like the way it leaps into the air, then don't open the throttle all the way. How hard can it be not to open the throttle wide open

If using your left thumb as anything but an on/off switch is too hard then you could always program your throttle end point to limit the power until you can barely get off the ground, if that's what floats your boat.
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