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Old Jun 09, 2014, 04:42 AM
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USA, NY, East Aurora
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I watched Toolmaker take off straight vertical with a shockjet in 300 feet or less off grass just last week

Pinehill at a fly in breakfast. Was nice .. what size motor Mike?

He also clearly stated not to try scale to start. That you ought to get used to the turbine lag first then try whatever jet blows your skirt up.. I would not recommend a scale jet to anyone new to turbines either.

AF

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Originally Posted by invertmast View Post
A shokjet isnt a scale jet. And from what i have found is a shokjet only teaches you turbine operation and lag, it doesnt have the wing loading of a scale jet.

Anyone who has flown some large, fast and heavy WW2 models wont have a problem with a scale jets flying characteristics, they will just have to learn that you dont pull the power to idle and glide to a landing, you have to put all the stuff out and use pitch to control your speed and use power to control the descent profile. That is the hardest thing about flying jets
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 09:03 AM
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United States, FL, North Port
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afioretti View Post
I watched Toolmaker take off straight vertical with a shockjet in 300 feet or less off grass just last week

Pinehill at a fly in breakfast. Was nice .. what size motor Mike?

He also clearly stated not to try scale to start. That you ought to get used to the turbine lag first then try whatever jet blows your skirt up.. I would not recommend a scale jet to anyone new to turbines either.

AF

Before all these trainer jets, you were only left with scale stuff and high performance sport jets. I know of 50+ people who started with scale jets (myself included). Was the learning curve steeper, yep, but that is part of the fun and since a shokjet offers absolutely Zero comparible flight characteristics to a scale jet, that learning curve will still be there. Then if the pilot has any varies experience with differing models in this hobby, he will likely be bored of the shokjet after a few flights.
With the newer turbines, throttle lag isnt as big a deal as it was 10-15years ago. And if you are flying a scale jet during the landing approach (Ie using pitch attitude to maintain speed and power to adjust descent angle... There is no "chopping to idle" and gliding in with real jets!) the turbine lag is nearly gone because the turbine is spooled up to 1/4-1/3 throttle depending on the model.
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 04:49 PM
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United Kingdom, Bishop's Cleeve
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Originally Posted by invertmast View Post
Before all these trainer jets, you were only left with scale stuff and high performance sport jets. I know of 50+ people who started with scale jets (myself included). Was the learning curve steeper, yep, but that is part of the fun and since a shokjet offers absolutely Zero comparible flight characteristics to a scale jet, that learning curve will still be there. Then if the pilot has any varies experience with differing models in this hobby, he will likely be bored of the shokjet after a few flights.
With the newer turbines, throttle lag isnt as big a deal as it was 10-15years ago. And if you are flying a scale jet during the landing approach (Ie using pitch attitude to maintain speed and power to adjust descent angle... There is no "chopping to idle" and gliding in with real jets!) the turbine lag is nearly gone because the turbine is spooled up to 1/4-1/3 throttle depending on the model.
Thanks Invertmast, I think your suggestion of the CARF Eurosport is the best compromise of cost, scale looks and flight characteristics.

The other "trainer" stuff leaves me cold and thinking, like you say, that it would be a short transition, after which I would become bored.

Just out of interest why do you feel a straight winged jet like an A10 or DH Vampire would not be a good first step? I thought with both having airbrakes and flaps they would make for easier landings with the turbine spooled up?
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 09:25 PM
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Lockport NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invertmast View Post
A shokjet isnt a scale jet. And from what i have found is a shokjet only teaches you turbine operation and lag, it doesnt have the wing loading of a scale jet.

Anyone who has flown some large, fast and heavy WW2 models wont have a problem with a scale jets flying characteristics, they will just have to learn that you dont pull the power to idle and glide to a landing, you have to put all the stuff out and use pitch to control your speed and use power to control the descent profile. That is the hardest thing about flying jets
Sounds like you should be over on RCU with your know it all attitude and your way is the only way. I gave sound advice and yes you can learn to drive in a Mayboch or or learn to fly with an F-18 landing on a carrier. Neather would be fun and very expensive or deadly if you make a mistake. I can respect your opinion but not the attitude. I fly for fun and relaxation end of story. PS a Shockjet is a turbine powered pattern aircraft. Maybe you should fly one before you make judgments ( w/ 20+ # thrust). I personaly get bored flying race track circles with a roll thrown in here or there. I'm not a fighter jock wanabe just one who wants to help others enjoy turbines.
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Old Jun 10, 2014, 07:02 AM
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I was not going to reply to this because you have bascially answered your own quesiton here. There were no trainers so you flew what you could find which was scale, correct? I think by your own admission, it sounds like you'd have flown a trainer if you had one. As toolmaker said you can fly whatver you want to start but it might not be the best idea. Besides what do you care if you give some backwards advice to some newbie who drills a hole in a field somewhere.. you won't have to deal with that. Toolmakers advice is spot on correct.....

Anyone starting off is turbines is best off on a trainer. As for delay times, you have delay time no matter what motor you are dealing with new or old. You are just used to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by invertmast View Post
Before all these trainer jets, you were only left with scale stuff and high performance sport jets. I know of 50+ people who started with scale jets (myself included). Was the learning curve steeper, yep, but that is part of the fun and since a shokjet offers absolutely Zero comparible flight characteristics to a scale jet, that learning curve will still be there. Then if the pilot has any varies experience with differing models in this hobby, he will likely be bored of the shokjet after a few flights.
With the newer turbines, throttle lag isnt as big a deal as it was 10-15years ago. And if you are flying a scale jet during the landing approach (Ie using pitch attitude to maintain speed and power to adjust descent angle... There is no "chopping to idle" and gliding in with real jets!) the turbine lag is nearly gone because the turbine is spooled up to 1/4-1/3 throttle depending on the model.
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Old Jun 10, 2014, 12:37 PM
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Thanks for all the input guys.

This thread was about finding a suitable trainer aircraft with a scale appearance, and that is all I was really interested in.
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Old Jun 10, 2014, 03:34 PM
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United States, TX, Katy
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Thanks Txshan - any idea which A10 it is?

Mibo A10, but I am pretty any A10 lands just as slow
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Old Jun 10, 2014, 05:51 PM
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Mibo A10, but I am pretty any A10 lands just as slow
Thanks
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Old Jun 11, 2014, 09:33 AM
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Lockport NY
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Originally Posted by Stephen73 View Post
Thanks for all the input guys.

This thread was about finding a suitable trainer aircraft with a scale appearance, and that is all I was really interested in.
I would suggest the Turbinator it can be done up as Zirolli pictured or in navy blue to look like a Cheeta. I thought that you were interested in an inexpensive first aircraft? A twin boom aircraft of any type looks to me like a trainer except the Vampire (not cheapest approuch).
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Old Jun 11, 2014, 12:20 PM
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I would suggest the Turbinator it can be done up as Zirolli pictured or in navy blue to look like a Cheeta. I thought that you were interested in an inexpensive first aircraft? A twin boom aircraft of any type looks to me like a trainer except the Vampire (not cheapest approuch).
Thanks for that.

Money's not really an issue for me. This year I've spent several thousand dollars (estimated >7 thousand dollars) getting three fully equipped Hangar 9 scale models into the air. All are electric and all are kitted out with the best kit I can find plus telemetry.

Scale looks however and low speed behaviour, along with the ability to operate off of a 600ft super smooth grass strip, are my main priorities.
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Old Jun 12, 2014, 07:42 AM
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Thanks for that.

Money's not really an issue for me. This year I've spent several thousand dollars (estimated >7 thousand dollars) getting three fully equipped Hangar 9 scale models into the air. All are electric and all are kitted out with the best kit I can find plus telemetry.

Scale looks however and low speed behaviour, along with the ability to operate off of a 600ft super smooth grass strip, are my main priorities.
This should meat your approval
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Old Jun 15, 2014, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by toolmaker49 View Post
This should meat your approval
Thanks for taking the time and care to respond, but that's not what I mean by scale.

I mean something with the look and feel of the original like this.

PS - I know this is a foamie but my big warbirds have not been through this treatment yet and will have a similar appearance.
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Old Jun 16, 2014, 05:54 AM
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Pittsburgh Allegheny, Pennsylvania, United States
Joined May 2004
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I don't agree with some of the above comments.

I've been flying RC for over 30 years... and I've been a waiver holder for 3 years now.

With that said... I've NEVER really cared for scale planes. I like to fly, and build. SO... last year, when I joined my new club... I built a ShockJet because it's a grass field... and I knew I could crush the landings, and not to have to worry about a fragile airframe.

AND... to say someone would get "Bored" with a shockjet is just silly. Other than able to make a 200 mph pass... I can do WAY more with my shock, and not have to worry about it, because it fly's like a "BigStick".

I'm flying mine with a 22 Lb thrust JC Falcon engine... and it's an absolute blast to fly. On grass... it's about a 100' roll, and pull straight up. Then, loop, roll, snap, spin.... and whatever, until it's time to land.


OK... to some... they think a trainer is a waste of time, since they are a "Experienced Pilot." But with turbines... a so called "Trainer" is still as maneuverable, and as fast as any high performance prop model you've ever flown. The only real difference in a good jet trainer is that it doesn't have any slow speed issues, that would get you into trouble, while learning how to manage the throttle on a turbine. Also, they are a good platform to learn proper installation with.

My ShockJet was my third turbine aircraft... and it get's flown more than any of my other models, just because it's a low stress model. It's the one a grab when I am just going out for a couple hr's at the local field. (it's turned into my knock-around jet) Besides... if you yank off that STUPID 60's looking canopy... it's not a bad looking model. (see below)

Anyway... that's my 2 cents... take it for what it's worth.




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Old Jun 16, 2014, 09:39 AM
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F15s and F22s both make great first jets if you have experience in heavy warbirds or decent size EDFs.

Any A10 would not make a good trainer because you would need to deal with 2 engines.

Dr Honda Good reply-- but scale jets to me its why I model. I like making my plane look like the real thing and fly like the real thing.

Here is my first jet and it now has over 320 flights and still going strong. Yellow F22
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Old Jun 16, 2014, 11:01 AM
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F15s and F22s both make great first jets if you have experience in heavy warbirds or decent size EDFs.

Any A10 would not make a good trainer because you would need to deal with 2 engines.

Dr Honda Good reply-- but scale jets to me its why I model. I like making my plane look like the real thing and fly like the real thing.

Here is my first jet and it now has over 320 flights and still going strong. Yellow F22
Thanks Gunradd.

After starting this thread and being specific on looking for a scale first jet, both in the title and pointed out a few times in the thread, it's good to see the type of advice I was looking for
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