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Old Jun 29, 2011, 04:33 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,186 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixer421 View Post
I am running an 'old' PC with Win XP. I do not wish to upgrade as this does almost everything I require. I have Movie Edit Pro which works well with most formats so I do not intend spending my pension on overpriced software just for a hobby. But thanks anyway.
I don't know what version of MEP you have, but older versions do not handle modern H.264 video files well at all, even on a more capable computer. I started with MEP 14+, and skipped 15 & 16 becuase the trial version weren't much better. I now have MEP17Plus which works well, but I have a fast "modern" quad core computer with lots of memory running W7. I'm afraid your hardware is going to make editing the #11 video somewhat frustrating.

If you don't need fancy transitions or titling... just wanting to clip out unwanted video, maybe add some color tweaks, rotations, etc., just download AviDemux editor. It has the necessary H.264 video codec built in. See the FAQs link in post #3 for a download site and tips on it's use with the #11 .MOV files. If your hardware cannot keep up with the H.264 decoding load during playback, you can easily output with a different, more easily played codec (e.g. MJPEG) but with a big file size penalty (on the order 3 times larger). You may need more harddrive space or DVD burner to manage and store these huge files.

As an aside (not directly aimed at you), the best acquisition anyone with old XP computers can make for editing these modern H.264 videos is to upgrade their computer, especially with W7 on that side of the OS fence. The free Windows Live Movie Maker can easily process the native #11 files with out breathing hard. And the Vista MM version can be installed for more editing features if desired.
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Old Jun 29, 2011, 04:50 PM
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Joined Jun 2011
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Some HD 808 footage from me Ebiking at dusk:

http://www.vimeo.com/25667476
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Old Jun 29, 2011, 04:56 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,186 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpySticks View Post
It is jerky and I can't figure out why. It may be because the frame rate of the original is not exactly 30fps, it's around 29.94. The conversion seems to skip an odd frame now and then, making the output jerky. Still cannot get the output to speed up using only the frame rate adjustment without decimating. Not bad really, but just a little jumpy in spots.

Here is what I get with the 1000 frame rate and decimating 30.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgeWf..._order&list=UL
Does this mean you tried the Source video at 300 fps with NO decimation, and it played back jerky?

If so, your PC is hardware limited. With Source at 300 fps and decimate set at 10, you should get the smoothness of playback (same number of dropped frames) as the VideoPad method of 1000% speed-up with 30 fps output, but the frames will be much higher quality (video data rate is about 3 times higher with the Vdub Direct Copy method than you got with the VideoPad re-encoded quality setting you used. If it doesn't play back with same smoothness of VideoPad, it's because of the higher video bit rate that your hardware can't decode fast enough to play smoothly. If you decimate more, you'll get even jerkier video.

For smoothest video, you need to minimize or eliminate any decimation (dropped frames). Going to higher source frame rates and larger decimation doesn't do this for you. It will give you faster playback, but jerkier motion because of all the frames that are missing.

So you may have found your limit if you want to avoid the re-encoding process.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Jun 29, 2011 at 05:46 PM.
Old Jun 29, 2011, 05:32 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,186 Posts
This Forum/Thread Use Rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by davy1010 View Post
Some HD 808 footage from me Ebiking at dusk:

http://www.vimeo.com/25667476
Hi Davy, welcome to the #11 HD camera forum.

Since you are new here, I'm using this opportunity to outline for everyone (not singling out you personally) the guidelines for use of this thread.

The free hosting service this site provides is dedicated to RC models, and the forum this thread is in is dedicated to aerial video from RC model aircraft. Also, this thread in particular is focused on that hobby segment specifically using the #11 HD camera.

This little #11 camera seems to have been discovered and is being used by many varied interests, and those users have found there way here. And they are welcome to come here for help in using their cameras, sharing problems/solutions, etc. But videos that are not RC aircraft oriented using the #11 camera (ground based or aircraft mounted), or are not demonstrating a problem or solution with the camera, are off topic. In short, general videos, even if shot with the #11 camera, without any tie to this thread's dedicated topic and purpose are off topic and should not be linked for viewing here.

I know some users like some of the off topic videos (including me), but they use up resources of the hosting site that are not part of their intended service, and waste time of RC aircraft hobbyists who come here expecting to see the camera's use for that purpose. I have to respect that intended use here. I have updated these thread rules in Post #1 (if anyone bothers to go there are read it) hoping to nip this in the bud before this becomes a repository for "what I did last weekend" #11 videos.

Sorry if this offends any one, but that's the guideline I intend to follow here. If it I can't keep the thread on topic, I'll have to close it down to further posts. It may have already achieved it's original intent anyway.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Jun 29, 2011 at 08:34 PM.
Old Jun 29, 2011, 05:53 PM
Drifting off the reservation..
JumpySticks's Avatar
USA, LA, Broussard
Joined Jan 2011
2,291 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
I don't know what version of MEP you have, but older versions do not handle modern H.264 video files well at all, even on a more capable computer. I started with MEP 14+, and skipped 15 & 16 becuase the trial version weren't much better. I now have MEP17Plus which works well, but I have a fast "modern" quad core computer with lots of memory running W7. I'm afraid your hardware is going to make editing the #11 video somewhat frustrating.

If you don't need fancy transitions or titling... just wanting to clip out unwanted video, maybe add some color tweaks, rotations, etc., just download AviDemux editor. It has the necessary H.264 video codec built in. See the FAQs link in post #3 for a download site and tips on it's use with the #11 .MOV files. If your hardware cannot keep up with the H.264 decoding load during playback, you can easily output with a different, more easily played codec (e.g. MJPEG) but with a big file size penalty (on the order 3 times larger). You may need more harddrive space or DVD burner to manage and store these huge files.

As an aside (not directly aimed at you), the best acquisition anyone with old XP computers can make for editing these modern H.264 videos is to upgrade their computer, especially with W7 on that side of the OS fence. The free Windows Live Movie Maker can easily process the native #11 files with out breathing hard. And the Vista MM version can be installed for more editing features if desired.
I'm thinking that part of my problem with the jumpy timelapse videos is that I'm using a Dell Dual core with XP. I have to hold on to xp because I run some very expensive software (autocad for example,at around $8,000.00 pwe license) which I would have to repurchase if I moved to windows 7. I'm holding out as long as I possibly can.
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Old Jun 29, 2011, 05:56 PM
Drifting off the reservation..
JumpySticks's Avatar
USA, LA, Broussard
Joined Jan 2011
2,291 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
Does this mean you tried the Source video at 300 fps with NO decimation, and it played back jerky?

If so, your PC is hardware limited. With Source at 300 fps and decimate set at 10, you should get the smoothness of playback (same number of dropped frames) as the VideoPad method of 1000% speed-up with 30 fps output, but the frames will be much higher quality (video data rate is about 3 times higher with the Vdub Direct Copy method than you got with the VideoPad re-encoded quality setting you used. If it doesn't play back with same smoothness of VideoPad, it's because of the higher video bit rate that your hardware can't decode fast enough to play smoothly. If you decimate more, you'll get even jerkier video.

For smoothest video, you need to minimize or eliminate any decimation (dropped frames). Going to higher source frame rates and larger decimation doesn't do this for you. It will give you faster playback, but jerkier motion because of all the frames that are missing.

So you may have found your limit if you want to avoid the re-encoding process.
When set at 300fps and no decimation, it plays at regular speed...no time lapse effect and no reduction in file size. Interestingly though, the video length displayed by the player (real or WMP) says it's shorter, but the video continues to play at regular speed after the time slider reaches the end. Very strange! No speedup without some decimation.

I figured a hardware limitation too, but it seems like if I upload to youtube, the file would play for you at high speed. I will try that, but have my doubts. (I'll use a flying video from now on!)

Very strange indeed.
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Old Jun 29, 2011, 06:23 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,186 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpySticks View Post
When set at 300fps and no decimation, it plays at regular speed...no time lapse effect and no reduction in file size. Interestingly though, the video length displayed by the player (real or WMP) says it's shorter, but the video continues to play at regular speed after the time slider reaches the end. Very strange! No speedup without some decimation.

I figured a hardware limitation too, but it seems like if I upload to youtube, the file would play for you at high speed. I will try that, but have my doubts. (I'll use a flying video from now on!)

Very strange indeed.
A video that is used to demonstrate a problem or solution with the #11, including video editing issues, is fair game here by my rules interpretation!

I have my "old" Dell Core2 PC I can try the video on, but when I play the 300 fps clip (no decimation) with WMP (v12) on my W7 PC, it plays back perfectly smooth at 300 fps (20 min. clips plays in 2 min,). Ditto for the VLC player! But interestingly, some programs won't or can't display at full speed. Even loading the 300fps video back into Vdub and playing it there only plays it in normal speed! Very strange! I'd think your dual core PC has the horsepower to play back the video... have you updated to the most recent version of WMP or tried VLC for playback?
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Old Jun 29, 2011, 08:09 PM
Drifting off the reservation..
JumpySticks's Avatar
USA, LA, Broussard
Joined Jan 2011
2,291 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
A video that is used to demonstrate a problem or solution with the #11, including video editing issues, is fair game here by my rules interpretation!

I have my "old" Dell Core2 PC I can try the video on, but when I play the 300 fps clip (no decimation) with WMP (v12) on my W7 PC, it plays back perfectly smooth at 300 fps (20 min. clips plays in 2 min,). Ditto for the VLC player! But interestingly, some programs won't or can't display at full speed. Even loading the 300fps video back into Vdub and playing it there only plays it in normal speed! Very strange! I'd think your dual core PC has the horsepower to play back the video... have you updated to the most recent version of WMP or tried VLC for playback?
Yes I have up to date wmp. VLC playback is the same as others.

Glad you agree that it's strange.

Thanks for your generous assistance. Hanging it up for the moment. Perhaps the answer will come when not trying. Works for me sometime.
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Old Jun 30, 2011, 12:32 AM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,186 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpySticks View Post
Yes I have up to date wmp. VLC playback is the same as others.

Glad you agree that it's strange.

Thanks for your generous assistance. Hanging it up for the moment. Perhaps the answer will come when not trying. Works for me sometime.
I'll offer just one more observation after playing back the 300fps (no decimation) file on three different computers. I saw a real time display in the converted video frame ticking away and could tell they weren't playing back at 10 times the normal rate on ANY of the three PCs. An approximate visual observation with all three machines using WMP v12 for playback showed:

Dell Pentium PC running XP: about 60 fps (2 sec. tick off the video every sec.)

Dell Core Duo PC (32 bit) running W7: about 90 fps (3 sec. tick off the video every sec.

Dell I7 Quad Core (64 bit) running W7: less than 150 fps (<5 sec. tick off the video every sec.)

The graphics cards in these machines are also affecting the speed of playback to some degree, but I can't quantify. But I can say the card in my high end PC is a fast Nvidia graphics card, and even with that platform I'm only able to play back the 300 fps video at slightly less than half the recorded speed! That surprised me a bit.

But the video did play back smoothly on all the PCs, so the video must be buffered by WMP, and then played as fast as the machine can process the data without hiccuping.

So I think your video processed by Vdub is playing as fast as it can on your PC. It may look like it is playing a regular speed, but it may actually be a bit faster. You could time the playback versus the theoretical speed to get the exact frame rate. The video info you posted on the clip processed with VideoPad had the frame size smaller (1080 x 576 vs 1280 x 720) which lowers the data rate by about 1/3, and the video quality setting you used had a bit rate about 1/3 as fast as the Vdub direct copy bit rate. And the output was set for 25 FPS rather than 30. So it would playback much easier and faster, but with some slight visible quality loss.

Bottom line - if you want faster playing video, you need to either decimate and accept the jerky playback, or re-encode, choosing smaller frame size and/or lower video bit rate and/or different video codec to lower the processing power/time required to play back on your PC.

Good luck... have fun with it.
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Old Jun 30, 2011, 03:01 AM
Registered User
Joined Nov 2010
2,464 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by utx View Post
I am now able to charge with a standard USB charger and record at once with my V2 camera! Just a small hardware modification (one 0R resistor removal) was needed: http://www.penguin.cz/~utx/hardware/...e_modification

The current camera circuit switches to mass storage or webcam mode whenever power supply appears on pin 1 of the USB connector. I plan to do more experiments and change the circuit to switch to USB mass storage or webcam mode only if USB data lines are wired to a real USB host. It is not so elegant as firmware change, but my camera would be fully charged after car ride recording aswell.

After this first step my camera never switches to USB mass storage nor webcam modes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by utx View Post
Today I tried to trace the pin wires from the removed 0R resistor. I supposed that there is a resistor voltage divisor that converts the voltage to the 3.3V or lower levels of the processor, and changing the divisor I would be able to detect 3V on D+ instead of 5V on pin 1. I did not find any such part. It seems that the pin is connected to the semi-through hole and wired in one of internal layers of the PCB directly to the processor. It makes sense, but it complicates the modification.

Now I have a pin where I can control the camera behavior (left pin of the removed 0R on the image).

If I connect more than 4.3V there, idle camera switches to the mass storage mode (touch, release, and LED goes down exactly as it does after computer USB cable removal). If I connect 4.1V or more, camera stays in normal mode. (It explains, why the camera often leaves webcam or mass storage mode with a thin USB cable.)

So basically I would need to build a circuit that detects 3V bias voltage on the D+ line. When it is present, I should connect the pin to 5V, otherwise keep it open. Guessing that RC filter and open collector repeater may provide such function.

Maybe there is a better way to do it, but not having the main chip datasheet and the firmware source code, it is impossible to find it.
Incredible detective work. Very, very interesting. Thank you very much for your clear and precise explanations, and the excellent picture. I'm now seriously considering removing the resistor on my own camera.

Unfortunately, although basically very simple, this modification can't be done by the majority of people reading this thread because of the tiny circuitry and lack of equipment. For me it would be challenging because of my no-longer-so-good eyesight and clumsy fingers

Have you considered (mis)using the "Reset" button as a helping hand? This button doesn't have much use as it is. I know this would not be an elegant solution, but maybe easier than building a small smt board/wiring harness to monitor the data line(s).

Anyway, please do keep us informed if/when you find something new.
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Old Jun 30, 2011, 04:27 AM
Registered User
Joined Jun 2011
58 Posts
I want to say thanks for the info in this thread. I have spent the last few weeks reading on here. I have some further questions of which I would appreciate some help.


1: Battery Mods

a) Has anyone successfully modified a #11 HD cam to provide 2-3 hours of video footage without using a battery pack and USB lead? So I mean using an internal battery with obviously the casing modified or the battery attached to the casing still somehow? What is involved?

b) Is it possible to fit a battery internally inside the stock #11 jumbo version casing that provides 2-3 hours worth of video footage, as opposed to the standard 100 minutes which is advertised? If not what is the most one can achieve with a replacement internal battery? Nothing more than the stock one? Does the stock jumbo battery maximize the space potential already I mean?

c) Can someone explain why I cannot use a Cell phone battery? Here in the UK most cell phones (mobile phones we call them!) have li-ion flat, rectangular, flat batteries typically between 500-2000mah dependant on handset. I know it says to use Li-Po but the different is not clear to me as to how they differ and what considerations I should make in trying different internal battery solutions.

2: Video quality / bitrate

a) What is the conclusion about 7mb/s vs 10mb/s? The FAQ guide seems to indicate that 10mb/s is not worth the extra space taken up by the files. Does it really use up 40% more space!? That cannot be right surely?

b) I gather the bitrate can be changed based on how the micro SD card is formatted, but how does one check what bitrate the resultant video is at? What utility/software can tell me? As simple as checking the properties of the vid file in windows?


3: Wide angle lens attachment

How are you guys attaching your wide angle lens to the keychain casing? Has anyone managed a temporary solution so you can remove the lens as and when necessary? A screwed thread somehow?
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Last edited by coursemyhorse; Jun 30, 2011 at 06:48 AM.
Old Jun 30, 2011, 04:32 AM
Agricultural flyer
mixer421's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Kent
Joined Aug 2007
508 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
I don't know what version of MEP you have, but older versions do not handle modern H.264 video files well at all, even on a more capable computer. I started with MEP 14+, and skipped 15 & 16 becuase the trial version weren't much better. I now have MEP17Plus which works well, but I have a fast "modern" quad core computer with lots of memory running W7. I'm afraid your hardware is going to make editing the #11 video somewhat frustrating.

If you don't need fancy transitions or titling... just wanting to clip out unwanted video, maybe add some color tweaks, rotations, etc., just download AviDemux editor. It has the necessary H.264 video codec built in. See the FAQs link in post #3 for a download site and tips on it's use with the #11 .MOV files. If your hardware cannot keep up with the H.264 decoding load during playback, you can easily output with a different, more easily played codec (e.g. MJPEG) but with a big file size penalty (on the order 3 times larger). You may need more harddrive space or DVD burner to manage and store these huge files.

As an aside (not directly aimed at you), the best acquisition anyone with old XP computers can make for editing these modern H.264 videos is to upgrade their computer, especially with W7 on that side of the OS fence. The free Windows Live Movie Maker can easily process the native #11 files with out breathing hard. And the Vista MM version can be installed for more editing features if desired.
Thanks Tom, I'm getting reasonable results by using AVC to convert to Mpeg2 though I have to put up with reduced resolution. I can then fully edit this with my old MEP10. I'll try AViDemux which sounds as though it'll do the job I need - nothing fancy! Overall, the camera is lot better video than my old MD-80..
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Old Jun 30, 2011, 07:39 AM
PED
Registered User
Joined Jun 2011
5 Posts
808 Camera mount

Quote:
Originally Posted by Normandy5 View Post
ActionCam seems to be an 808 #11 camera with a mounting kit.

OMG $139.95

http://ped-products.com/index.php?di...product_id=121
Hey all, in viewing our website's stats I came across this thread and I just wanted to inform that the mount for the 808 style cameras is available outside of the package, here. At current we can't get the cost down until we see a higher demand...

I also just wanted to mention that the $119 package cost includes, the HD #11 camera, 4G memory, Mount and FREE shipping by USPS in US. or the $89 package with the .AVI HD which includes all the items as previously mentioned.

We would invite any comments/suggestions or questions you might have.

Regards,

PED Products
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Old Jun 30, 2011, 05:31 PM
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Berkie's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Rosebud
Joined Feb 2007
2,098 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithLuneau View Post
I have both the 0.67 wide/macro lens (W-67) and the 180 fish-eye (FE-12). I agree the fish-eye lens can be a little TOO wide at times, but I found it to be better focused around the edges than the other one. The wide/macro still gives a wider angle than without it, but tends to stay sharp in the center and blurs towards the edges. If it will help I'll post a short video to show the difference.
Yeah Keith. I'd like to see that

Thanks

Kev
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Old Jun 30, 2011, 11:40 PM
Registered User
jims123's Avatar
USA, CA, San Diego 92120
Joined Oct 2007
3,088 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by davy1010 View Post
Some HD 808 footage from me Ebiking at dusk:

http://www.vimeo.com/25667476
Dave,
great video .. very clear.. the shadows clearly show how little you are pedaling to get the terrific speeds. I'd never use it on the freeway but perhaps could figure out how to get to work with it if not too pricy.. Send us a link Please.. JiMS
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