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Old Mar 15, 2013, 06:21 PM
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Anti Drone Legislation: a call for information and ideas

Our hobby is at great risk; We badly need a clearing house for info about all pending "anti-drone" and anti-aerial photography legislation to develop strategies to inform the media, legislators and public (and in some cases, do a more thoughtful job of self-regulating).

Some moderator needs to make a sticky or a new forum, or something even more prominent that will focus the attention of our fellow pilots; the scattered threads are not sufficient for the threat our hobby is now facing.

Ok maybe I wasn't paying so much attention as I knew the AMA was in dialog with the FAA regarding the RC hobby and it recently revisited and revised its FPV guidelines; but now the stuff has hit the sensationalist media fan and the and uninformed rabble of lawmakers in dozen states are in the process of banning or legislating our hobby out of existence based of privacy issues.

The general public has the idea that "drones" (whatever that means) are all reapers or cyber bots from the Terminator. The pending Oregon legislation would actually make a kid playing with his $70 parrot ar drone in his front yard a felony offense!

We can blame others for being ignorant and even looking to exploit causes for their own political gain--but I would submit that we must not only continue to operate our craft in a safe manner, but also pull together to serve as ambassadors for our hobby. Only through having RCGroups, and others, support the distribution of information and proactive strategies can we hope to evolve some sort of rational response that educates the public towards the reality of lightweight toy-like craft being in use for years safely without incident vs the fantastical imaginings of killer peeping Tom drones.

If we don't pull together we'll individually loose our hobby while the nation potentially looses its edge in a slew of important technologies and RCGroups looses its most popular forum . . .
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Old Mar 15, 2013, 07:48 PM
BEOWULF
North vancouver, B.C. Canada
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Maybe look at the cause of why this came about

It might help you with solution
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Old Mar 15, 2013, 09:16 PM
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It is just a sign of the times. They want your guns. They want your RC. They want to box you up and pack you away.

Elections have consequences.
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Old Mar 15, 2013, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie James View Post
Elections have consequences.
This issue has *nothing* to do with elections or the man in the white house.
It's not even partisan. Both republicans and democrats have introduced similar
anti-drone bills. They're based on fear and ignorance and you'll even find people
within the R/C community supporting the idea because they don't like FPV.
Many of these bills are a direct challenge to the authority of the FAA so one
can't even claim that the the FAA and states are in cahoots to shut us down.

AeroHeadTW, AMA has a page with a map tracking the 30 or so states with anti-drone
legislation in process.
http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/ama...e-legislation/

ian
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Old Mar 15, 2013, 09:43 PM
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United States, GA, Kennesaw
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This issue has *everything* to do with elections and the man in the white house and republicans and democrats.

You haven't learned the new equation for the 2010's yet, have you?

Keep it handy: republican = democrat.

Once you learn that they are both the same thing and sit in opposition to liberty, you will awaken to a whole new world.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 10:13 AM
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United States, NJ, Berkeley Heights
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
This issue has *nothing* to do with elections or the man in the white house.
It's not even partisan. Both republicans and democrats have introduced similar
anti-drone bills. They're based on fear and ignorance and you'll even find people
within the R/C community supporting the idea because they don't like FPV.
Many of these bills are a direct challenge to the authority of the FAA so one
can't even claim that the the FAA and states are in cahoots to shut us down.

AeroHeadTW, AMA has a page with a map tracking the 30 or so states with anti-drone
legislation in process.
http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/ama...e-legislation/

ian
Thanks for the link Daemon.

There seem to be an awful lot of conspiracy theories out there to blame everything (pick your problem) on grand organized plans that would involve thousands without a single leak (in this era of hyper connections--nobody's switched sides, etc?!). It all seems pretty impossible to me; the standard ignorance, pride, greed and other human failures are more than enough to explain the muddle that the present is--and always will be--things that are wrapped, and shaped, to meanings are invariably myths.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 05:49 PM
W4UAV
Gainesville, FL
Joined Nov 2005
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Call and/or email your congressman.. They work for you, make them work for you. Find out who they are and do it. At least you cannot say you didnt do anything..
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 09:58 PM
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Banff Alberta Canada
Joined Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeroHeadTW View Post
Our hobby is at great risk; We badly need a clearing house for info about all pending "anti-drone" and anti-aerial photography legislation to develop strategies to inform the media, legislators and public (and in some cases, do a more thoughtful job of self-regulating).

Some moderator needs to make a sticky or a new forum, or something even more prominent that will focus the attention of our fellow pilots; the scattered threads are not sufficient for the threat our hobby is now facing.

Ok maybe I wasn't paying so much attention as I knew the AMA was in dialog with the FAA regarding the RC hobby and it recently revisited and revised its FPV guidelines;

we must not only continue to operate our craft in a safe manner, but also pull together to serve as ambassadors for our hobby.

If we don't pull together we'll individually loose our hobby while the nation potentially looses its edge in a slew of important technologies and RCGroups looses its most popular forum . . .
The FPV hobby is a real passion of mine and I will go to great lengths to protect it.
You have made some key points in your posting.
- We need to do allot of self regulating.
- We need sufficient FPV guidelines.
- All FPV pilots must present themselves as ambassadors for this hobby .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=1Ppj7kKWZok
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 07:36 AM
Nakelp
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Funny as they worry about privacy, meanwhile, you have cameras on every street, now they have the drones watching and may kill you.
This is the reason probably so we dont interfere with their stuff.
This sucks.
According to the new law, I am now criminal, because I have FPV rigs.
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 08:34 AM
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In my opinion. We need the lawmakers to focus on the perceived problem, and not their knee jerk reaction solution.

The OP states "Lawmakers in dozen states are in the process of banning or legislating our hobby out of existence based (on) privacy issues"

It does seem that the public hot button is the 'privacy issues'.

Should there be laws to prohibit photographing with a telephoto lens other peoples private actions? In some areas there are laws which prohibit photographing or gathing data from people who have a "reasonable expectation of privacy". Maybe this type of legislation if not already on the books could be strengthened.
If your on the beach, there is not an expectation of privacy. If you're inside your home dwelling, then there would be an expectation of privacy.

This would or should apply equally regardless of the tools used to gather the photograph or data. This would be a step towards addressing the root problem.

This then should apply for all technologies, and not just FPV..

The existance of FPV, Drones, UAV, and similar technologies are just new tools that can gather data.. Just like a telescope, remote listening device, wi-fi sniffer, satellite, x-ray or any number of technologies. Last time I checked, I could still buy, own, and operate a telescope.

I think we need to guide the discussion of privacy issues to these more general terms which would deflect the focus on FPVs specifically.

The issue that seems to be getting less attention, which surprises me, is the safety issue. I think this is what the FAA is most concerned about.. Here I'm sure we can come up with reasonable guidlelines to ensure the public safety.. But this doesn't really seem to be what has the public (aka, the media's) attention.
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 10:43 AM
Gravity is patient............
Joined Mar 2006
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Since government never removes laws, only adds them, it stands to reason that all governments will eventually become tyrranical if allowed to exist long enough.
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 10:58 AM
Nakelp
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United States, NJ, Union
Joined Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InFocus View Post
In my opinion. We need the lawmakers to focus on the perceived problem, and not their knee jerk reaction solution.

The OP states "Lawmakers in dozen states are in the process of banning or legislating our hobby out of existence based (on) privacy issues"

It does seem that the public hot button is the 'privacy issues'.

Should there be laws to prohibit photographing with a telephoto lens other peoples private actions? In some areas there are laws which prohibit photographing or gathing data from people who have a "reasonable expectation of privacy". Maybe this type of legislation if not already on the books could be strengthened.
If your on the beach, there is not an expectation of privacy. If you're inside your home dwelling, then there would be an expectation of privacy.

This would or should apply equally regardless of the tools used to gather the photograph or data. This would be a step towards addressing the root problem.

This then should apply for all technologies, and not just FPV..

The existance of FPV, Drones, UAV, and similar technologies are just new tools that can gather data.. Just like a telescope, remote listening device, wi-fi sniffer, satellite, x-ray or any number of technologies. Last time I checked, I could still buy, own, and operate a telescope.

I think we need to guide the discussion of privacy issues to these more general terms which would deflect the focus on FPVs specifically.

The issue that seems to be getting less attention, which surprises me, is the safety issue. I think this is what the FAA is most concerned about.. Here I'm sure we can come up with reasonable guidlelines to ensure the public safety.. But this doesn't really seem to be what has the public (aka, the media's) attention.
Well, we all know that but no one knows how to stop the madness effectively.
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 11:20 AM
Nakelp
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http://www.modelaircraft.org/gov/statebills/NJA3157.pdf
thats whats coming
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David22 View Post
Maybe look at the cause of why this came about

It might help you with solution
Only one. Drone Strikes. That's the only difference between decades of FPV and now. FPV's were gaining popularity, but were already mainstream before there were news of drones coming home.

The main fear is mostly directed at the government taking drones home and using the same capabilities they were used for in Yemen to turn the US into police states, the hobbyist are just collateral.

Hobby grade FPV, which makes up 95-99% of the drones, do not have the ability to do what the public is getting from the military drones. Lens type, noise, payload capacity, and battery life do not make them anything at all like the ones used in the military.

For now, the easiest solution is to make a 'compromise' by implementing laws that would limit their use by the government, while not affecting the hobbyist. Some ideas:

#1 Ban use of telephoto lenses or anything with less than 90deg fov.
- We don't use them because their field of view is too narrow, but an endurance type drone (i.e. predator) uses them for surveillance.

#2 Ban use of weapons
- Obviously

#3 Ban endurance drones that can stay up longer than 30 minutes.
- You need atleast that long of a loiter time to get anything useful as surveillance.

#4 Make any kind of recording or evidence gathered via aerial surveillance inadmissible in court, nor make anything taken be used as... uh... (help me here, what's the word you use for bad mouthing or conspire against someone? I'm not a native English speaker... libel?)
- Recording ability in our ground station is a must because it acts as our 'Black Box' in the event of a crash. But there's a clear distinction between rcexplorer.se type of recording and paparazzi.


These are the things I can think of right now. They'll address the peoples concerns without affecting hobbyists.
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Old Mar 18, 2013, 11:30 AM
Gravity is patient............
Joined Mar 2006
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I think a weight limitation would make sense. Might not be popular, but that would be a logical way of drawing a line between hobbyist and a real threat to security. It's also directly related to how much damage someone can do, accidently or on purpose....
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