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Old Nov 20, 2012, 09:50 AM
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Wick Smith's Avatar
United States, MI, Grosse Pointe Woods
Joined Aug 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breakwater View Post
Calling on Detroit to host the 2013 Marblehead Class nationals.
You guys have 23 Marbleheads..... Our Class secretary says....... all it takes is a club that is pretty sure they can get Five



What say you Detroit?
Wow, you guys post so fast I can't keep up. It's funny you ask this. We had our fall Marblehead meeting just last week. This subject came up. We thought we would invite the country to sail here and not change our boats. Just to see how we would do. We are still in discussions. Don't get your hopes up this clubs calendar is booked most of the time. But it would be interesting.

As for the M ODR class here. The original intent in 1998 was to just limit the rig. It was still a class legal M with a class legal rig. There is nothing in the rule about what vintage the hull and keel are. We have 5 different designs sailing currently. That said, we are departing more from that consept. We now have a keel length resriction and a min hull weight. That could be constude as not being a Marblehead anymore. I understand that, but we would like to see the racing closer in the end and keep costs under control.

Some of this started with the fact that my molds got old and were not producing the quality I demand. (By the way I am a manufacturer of Marbleheads and have been since 1990. www.greatlakesrcsailing.com ). I desided to build new molds. I feel a fleet can not survive without a source of boats to replace those that drop out. With that I went to the members with an issue. If I design a new M to the current state of technology I was affraid to would obsolete the rest of the boats. With the new restrictions I feel we are close again. But the hull will be built to the rule and will have a short and long keel option. Now I just have to finish the design and start to CNC the plugs.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 10:08 AM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Minnesota, USA
Joined Aug 2002
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Hi Wick -
with all the numbers discussed and thrown out, one more time for some of us "slow" folks - would you mind simply posting the "Detroit M Class Specs" please?

I'm originally from Saginaw area, and we are back to Michigan several times during summer to visit my wife's family. I am "thinking" about building an "M" this winter based on a newer design from an Italian. (design is AZUR) and I would readily build to meet your local fleet specs for a "Detroit Version" and also an "open" version. If a trip coincided with a Detroit event, I would be interested in possibly attending. Just want to be sure I have the options to meet your specs. I am not sure if you said their was a minimum weight, so that might be the only sticking point, which , I would assume could be addressed by corrector weights in the hull. Thanks, Dick
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 11:16 AM
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United States, MA, Wenham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick L. View Post
Hi Wick -
with all the numbers discussed and thrown out, one more time for some of us "slow" folks - would you mind simply posting the "Detroit M Class Specs" please?

I'm originally from Saginaw area, and we are back to Michigan several times during summer to visit my wife's family. I am "thinking" about building an "M" this winter based on a newer design from an Italian. (design is AZUR) and I would readily build to meet your local fleet specs for a "Detroit Version" and also an "open" version. If a trip coincided with a Detroit event, I would be interested in possibly attending. Just want to be sure I have the options to meet your specs. I am not sure if you said their was a minimum weight, so that might be the only sticking point, which , I would assume could be addressed by corrector weights in the hull. Thanks, Dick
Dick.
Don't drive yourself nuts.
If you want to build an M, Just build one. As Wick just said, they have about 5 different designs sailing currently. That's the whole point of this class. They are all different, even the OD fleet!

You were asking about International rules, and USA Rules. now you're asking about OD rules, and corrector weights. Just build one and sail it 'till the cows come home.

Just pick a boat, from one of the eras.. and build it.
Who's going to host the Nationals? Just do it.



The M-Class sure has alot of Roolz for a class that is built on the premise of doing what you want to do within 50/800
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 11:28 AM
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United States, MA, Wenham
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Originally Posted by waboats View Post
To then divide the current classs into another sub-set just means the class gets further broken up.
Ugh Man. Finally.
We aren't talking about Apples & Oranges, We are talking about Braeburn's and Cortlands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by waboats View Post
The Vintage Idea has merit merely just to get Boats on the water. But it only takes one skipper to want to be that little bit more competitive with a newer faster design, then the concept is lost as that skipper becomes excluded.

Um,
Every era had faster boats than others.
Plus, The whole point of racing, and racing in a developmental class is for that skipper that does want to make their boat faster than their competitors.
There's no way to fairly handicap ANY era of M. So we shouldn't handicap any of them, just let the desgin be what it is.
A corrector weight to bring 2 designs to the same exact weights does not mean that competition is all-of-a sudden equal, but it's a feel-good, and brings the designs closer atleast.

Each era has boats that are faster than the others within the same era. A Skapel is faster than a Viper. This is a developmental class. Some boats are just faster than others..

But, you can sail similar designs together and have close-competitive racing.
Maybe someone suggested that before.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:21 PM
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United States, MI, Bloomfield Hills
Joined Feb 2010
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Dick,

The rules at DMYC are quite simple. The sails must come from the same mold which Wick has and he sells them at a very reasonable cost, the rigs are basically B and C. Also an aluminum mast is required.

Wick has worked hard to build this feet and it is working. Heck we have more boats weekly than they had at the Nationals....not knocking San Diego just saying the concept seems to be working here. Wick also carries a spare boat with him for potential new guys to sail and that really works well. Last year I borrowed a boat from a member and was sold immediately, I have now found an old Sterne boat for myself. All I need to do is slap the OD rigs on it and I am ready to go

For 2013 in an effort to even out the fleet and make it easier for some of us old guys to launch there is now a minimum weight (2.3pounds) and a fin restriction of I think 20 inches to the top of the bulb (I'm not positive about the depth rule). These rules were decided by the local fleet in the fall meeting that Wick mentioned, for instance the weight was an average of all the boats in the fleet and every boat can be made to fit these rules. Any hull is legal.

Part of the idea is to let some of the guys with light boats be able to add some weight and make them more durable and water tight.

Ted
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Last edited by TedFlack; Nov 20, 2012 at 12:31 PM.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:44 PM
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Wick Smith's Avatar
United States, MI, Grosse Pointe Woods
Joined Aug 2011
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Dick L.

The specs are:

Class Legal Marblehead
B and C Rig sails from approved molds
Aluminum Mast
2 Channel maximum
Keel shall be removable
Max fin length is 20"
Min hull weight is 2.30 lb
Hull is defined as Boat ready to sail minus rig, keel fin and lead

Sails are $100
Masts are $25
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 01:12 PM
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United States, CA, Fairfax
Joined Apr 2011
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Just weighed my Skalpel Hull as per Wick's notes and with the battery, Rx, hatch (Jib and Main Booms are attached to the deck) included, the wieght is 2.38 lbs.
It's not unrealistic to convert this boat to the DMYC rules.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 01:17 PM
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United States, MA, Wenham
Joined Jan 2007
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Just weighed my Viper Hull as per Wick's notes and with the battery, Rx, hatch, and rudder included,
The skin-Coat deck is not included, as I pull that off every winter an put a fresh one on. Add 4 ounces total?
the wieght is 2.04 lbs with no deck.
It's not unrealistic to convert this boat to the DMYC rules... but my masts are all carbon.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 06:46 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Minnesota, USA
Joined Aug 2002
2,355 Posts
Wick & Ted -- Thanks for providing an answer to my question.

Currently the plans that I have started to look at for a possible winter build call for:
* Keel (bottom of hull to top of bulb) = 19.69 inches
* Beam = 6.06 inches
* Displacement = 8.77 lbs.
* Construction weight is estimated to be = 2.76 lbs.

Thus it looks like all I need to consider is the aluminum mast and the OD sails when I get to that point. If I can shave off any weight in construction, it doesn't look like there will be any issues in meeting the minimum weight if radio gear, batteries and servos are included in the weight. Also a "patch deck" would be possible if the expected weight comes in as predicted. I can still work with a wood or carbon mast for the "A" rig for "regular" competition.

Thanks guys. Dick
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 11:09 PM
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My viper comes in at 1 lb 15.5 oz with wood deck, rudder, radio and batteries. It was lighter with the film deck, but I got tired of dealing with the film and replaced it with wood. The keel is only 19 in from bottom of the hull to top of bulb. My Ajax is 24" from bottom of hull to top of bulb and is easily over the 2.3 lbs. My Pixel is 23.75 deep and over 2.3 lbs. Adding weight would be easy, but cutting ~4 in off the fin would be painful.

How deep a boat can Redds pond handle?
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slotracer577 View Post
My viper comes in at 1 lb 15.5 oz with wood deck, rudder, radio and batteries.
- Exactly the point, ALL Ms are different, even ones that are the same.
Probable differences between the Viper I weighed and yours..(aside from the obvious wood deck)
1. My boat was painted (I believe Mark Mason) But painted none-the less and adds weight. (Yes, that matters on a boat that is 1 sheet of kevlar thick.)
2. I have both the swing-rig step, and conventional steps installed. (Most other Vipers I've seen have one or the other)
3. I like a stout rudder servo, I forget exactly what it is, but it's around 100oz/in of torque, and probably weighs double a HS-311
4. I have an RMG 280 in the boat, which is heavy in it's own.


I measure fins like you do. From the bottom of the boat to the top of the lead.

I also have the 19" Viper fin, with a 7lb ballast. I also have (Working from memory) a 17" fin. I sail with the 17" fin most often, because it's lighter lead, and we get light air at Redds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slotracer577 View Post
How deep a boat can Redds pond handle?
In a Really, really, really bad drought year, you aren't safe sailing a 16" Fin. Although that's a rare occasion.
This year, the water never really got low at any point, You would have been safe sailing the 19" fin all year.

As a rule, if we get 1" of rain, the pond level increases 2" due to runoff.

Anything over the 19" fin at any time is not safe at Redds. There are a few ledges to hit. It's quite a disturbing site to watch your lead stop-short and the boat keep sailing.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breakwater View Post
- Exactly the point, ALL Ms are different, even ones that are the same.
Probable differences between the Viper I weighed and yours..(aside from the obvious wood deck)
1. My boat was painted (I believe Mark Mason) But painted none-the less and adds weight. (Yes, that matters on a boat that is 1 sheet of kevlar thick.)
2. I have both the swing-rig step, and conventional steps installed. (Most other Vipers I've seen have one or the other)
3. I like a stout rudder servo, I forget exactly what it is, but it's around 100oz/in of torque, and probably weighs double a HS-311
4. I have an RMG 280 in the boat, which is heavy .
The difference is probably the servo and paint. Mine is unpainted, has the swing rig step and rmg winch. Paint is heavy. I ruined a 10R by painting it.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 07:23 AM
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United States, MI, Grosse Pointe Woods
Joined Aug 2011
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It's funny how the same numbers keep coming around. I was pushing for a 19" max depth but was swayed to increase it to 20". Sorry I let that happen now.

I remember back when Detroit hosted the Nationals in 95, a skipper came from the East Coast with a 16" fin. Said it was all his pond could handle. It was sad because he really was a good sailor, his boat held him back. Not sure why he didn't have 2 keels considering all the money he spent traveling.

Slotracer; Interesting that you added a wood deck because you were tired of dealing with the film. Not to bring in another class but when I designed the 1.7 Meter I made sure to add that hard decks are mandatory. I also set the minimum weight high enough so it could be done right. Back to the M, that was the main reason for the min hull weight we added this year. People like me that have to maintain 5 boats are also tired of dealing with film decks and tape.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 09:13 AM
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United States, MA, Wenham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wick Smith View Post
It's funny how the same numbers keep coming around. I was pushing for a 19" max depth but was swayed to increase it to 20". Sorry I let that happen now.

I remember back when Detroit hosted the Nationals in 95, a skipper came from the East Coast with a 16" fin. Said it was all his pond could handle. It was sad because he really was a good sailor, his boat held him back. Not sure why he didn't have 2 keels considering all the money he spent traveling.
Personally, I'm against limiting Ms to a Min weight, and Max depth, only because I feel like, as mentioned... It limits development.

But, And I mean this whole-heartedly... If that is what it takes to get this class back on the pond in Masses.... Then let's (as a class) vote on it a 3rd time.
I'm against it, but I'll vote for it for the betterment of the class. As mentioned by Houdini, even the Skapels can play. Their weight isn't too far off, and Waliki makes a short-fin for his boats.



My big push, as everone knows, is to get people to sail Ms from any era.
An Arrow 7, Toad, Madcap, or bewitched are a blast to sail....
If Money is the concern, there are Thousands of these boats in estates, attics, garages, basements.... They already exist, just need to be sailed.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 09:57 AM
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My vote would be to adopt the international rules, which do have a depth limit. It is deeper than what some are using now, but it is a limit. I think it would be good to align the class with the rest of the world.
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