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Old Jul 18, 2013, 02:57 PM
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HouseOf4Doors's Avatar
United States, CA, Richmond
Joined Dec 2007
161 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn View Post
I like that look at the farest/closest extremity idea. I have to give that a try.

For what it's worth, what helps me--

Regular Flight --
Coordinated aileron/rudder turns -- both sticks go the same way.
Knife-edge turns -- sticks go in opposite directions (both in or both out).

Inverted Flight --
Coordinated aileron/rudder turns -- sticks go in opposite directions (both in or both out).
Knife-edge turns -- both sticks go the same way.

What I've been practicing the last day or two on the sim (and I'll try with my planes next time I'm at the field) is Reverse-Half-Cuban-8s and Half-Cuban-8s using rudder to correct course. I find that really helps as you are correcting one way and then have to switch rudder to correct the same way after the 1/2 roll.

Flying regular and getting rudder correct is easy. Flying inverted continuously and getting rudder correct comes after just a tad of practice using the rules above.

Getting rudder correct all the time while quickly switching from regular to inverted is hard and you don't have time for rules. For me at least, it's practice practice practice those half 8s.

-l2t
Yes, Learn, sticks same/opposite sticks is a great rule which I still practice using on the sim. My routine is to fly 1/2 rolls from level continuously across the sky using this sequence:

-roll right 1/2 to inverted
-roll left 1/2 to upright

-roll left 1/2 to inverted
-roll right 1/2 to upright

Over and over back and forth across the sky while always trying to stop wings level at the end of 1/2 rolls. Hopefully this will burn it into muscle memory because I lost an expensive plane by wrong rudder while practicing rolls.

Bill
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 11:46 AM
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United States, FL, Orlando
Joined Jun 2010
66 Posts
rudder inverted rolls opposite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyer1950 View Post
Rolling from inverted is always "same". Rolling from upright is always "opposite".
I'm just now starting to get this. regarding roll and snap-like related behavior and it's (strong) relationship to rudder: when upright, rudder tends to produce roll (leading to snap) in same direction as rudder. But when inverted, rudder produces OPPOSITE roll. I don't think this is something that is covered alot directly so I'd really like to. It's come to my mind from the recent airshow tragedy in the Stearman where I think rudder input while flying slow (not stalled) inverted caused a snap (others share a similar theory).The elevwas the kicker...as it started to roll the the elev suddenly added tons more of 'left inverted' rudder=snap. Anyway, why does it roll oppositely with the same rudder when inverted? well I think I know but I'm just starting to get it. Since the yaw produced is the opposite from a global flight perspective (ignoring inversion), it kicks the opposite wing forward increasing its lift or something like that (the same forces that produce roll when upright). It's got nothing to do with direct rolling forces created by rudder's short lever (as evidenced by it being opposite of that when upright). This is advanced stuff for me. We all know ailerons are always the same etc,and all the other rules. But this one is a whale IMO. rule: upright rudder produces roll in same direction. Inverted rudder produces roll in opposite. So aileron counteractions against rudder (if you do any) are going to be opposite! I think that's why you should never mix ail and rudder for a 3d plane. Personally I don't want to ever mix them. Gonna take a while for this to soak in. My rule of thumb, when in doubt or panic, don't use rudder.
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Last edited by el touristo; Jul 31, 2013 at 04:24 PM.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 12:16 PM
Registered User
United States, FL, Orlando
Joined Jun 2010
66 Posts
"Regular Flight --
Coordinated aileron/rudder turns -- both sticks go the same way.
Knife-edge turns -- sticks go in opposite directions (both in or both out).

Inverted Flight --
Coordinated aileron/rudder turns -- sticks go in opposite directions (both in or both out).
Knife-edge turns -- both sticks go the same way."

Yeah 'horizontal' knife edge turns I guess. Thats what I mean by 'counteracting' ailerons. I can't believe I'm just now getting this. Oh well.
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Old Aug 01, 2013, 08:28 PM
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United States, MA, Medfield
Joined Jul 2010
831 Posts
You know what's helping me. I just started trying the first few moves of sportsman pattern with a 48" plane so I ain't no pattern flyer but one of those first moves is the reverse cuban eight. I find that really helps with rudder orientation. It's changing from upright to inverted and changing from flying away to flying toward you that's confusing. That move has a 1/2 roll and a 1/2 loop so it has both changes. I do those over and over and over again on both my planes and my sim.
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