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Old Feb 09, 2011, 09:39 PM
Fidler & twidler
empeabee's Avatar
Cranfield U.K.
Joined Mar 2004
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2 camera rx'd

F.Y.I.
I ordered 2 with 4G cards from eletoponline on Jan 30th.
Got an automatic reply 'On Holiday', then An email saying thanks, will ship soon.
They arrived this morning, well packed and both seem to work ok, video 7000 odd according to GSPOT, though haven't done detailed checks yet, but near field indoors video looks fine, and WebCam mode better than a logitek one.

Mike
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Old Feb 09, 2011, 09:44 PM
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Joined Jan 2010
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I'm wondering, why do they make these keycams with a need to focus at all? I know that there are fixed focus lenses out there, and they are common (such as what the gopro uses, but also many other cameras), whether its right up very close to the lens, or far away, its all in focus. Why doesn't the keychain cam use such a lens?

So I know there has been talk in the past about people wanting to find ways to retrofit other lenses in place of the stock lens. Some have mentioned the threading being an issue, well I've thought of a couple possible solutions. Perhaps someone (I'd even try it myself if I was pretty confident it would work), could just take an old lens from the standard keycam, drill it out, just saving the threads, and attach a different lens ripped from some other source. Or I believe it could be possible to make almost any shape adaptor with instamorph plastic.

Does anybody more familiar with these lenses and cmos sensors know what type of lens you would even need to use? I mean theres convex, concave, plano convex, convex-concave, and many others. I'd potentially butcher a old keycam in the name of experimentation if I knew something that was actually likely to work. I'm just trying to find a way to get a wider view, without the blurry edges, or a ton of distortion.
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Old Feb 09, 2011, 10:50 PM
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BRISVEGAS BABY
Joined Mar 2010
120 Posts
Hi

I am having a problem with my camera i cannot figure out.

When i turn it on the yellow light comes on like normal but then it only stays on for about 4-5 second before it turns off again.

I thought that maybe the battery is flat, but when i put it on charge the red light comes on and turns of maybe 5 minutes later....

I have done the date removal but i have also used the camera successfully several times since doing so.

Any ideas?

UPDATE:

iv also tried putting the dateon firmware back on,

It does still work as a web cam

I can still use USB to acces files and folders
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Last edited by nathan089; Feb 09, 2011 at 11:01 PM.
Old Feb 10, 2011, 12:58 AM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,889 Posts
There is a freeware Image Stabilization (IS) filter for Vdub called DeShaker (you can google for it). Some third party filters can be utilized in different programs. There's none that comes with the AviDemux software download. Never tried to import the VDub one into AviDemux. IS is not good for AV shots where the camera is often moving a lot... it can smear the image trying to keep it in one place. For hand held it can be OK, but when the border starts getting pulled into the frame, that's more disrupting to my viewing than a steady border with the model moving. But that's just me...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
I watched a zoomed in video of a Funcub on the thread of the same name. The plane was rock steady in the video and the outside edge of the video frame moved around quite a bit as consequence of the image stabilization. That told me the tightly zoomed image was really bouncing around in raw form but after processing it was stable.

The video editor used was Adobe premiere CS4 with Mercalli stabilization plugin. I want to know if there is anything on the market that will plug into the free ware we use.
Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RACiJ76kbQ
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Feb 10, 2011 at 01:04 AM.
Old Feb 10, 2011, 01:01 AM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,889 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan089 View Post
Hi

I am having a problem with my camera i cannot figure out.

When i turn it on the yellow light comes on like normal but then it only stays on for about 4-5 second before it turns off again.

I thought that maybe the battery is flat, but when i put it on charge the red light comes on and turns of maybe 5 minutes later....

I have done the date removal but i have also used the camera successfully several times since doing so.

Any ideas?

UPDATE:

iv also tried putting the dateon firmware back on,

It does still work as a web cam

I can still use USB to acces files and folders
It sounds to me like maybe your battery will not take a charge properly. I'd check the voltage on the battery terminals after you attempt to charge it to see if it really IS charged. Either the battery or the charging circuit could be faulty.
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Old Feb 10, 2011, 01:30 AM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,889 Posts
Comments inserted in red below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carl1864 View Post
I'm wondering, why do they make these keycams with a need to focus at all? I know that there are fixed focus lenses out there, and they are common (such as what the gopro uses, but also many other cameras), whether its right up very close to the lens, or far away, its all in focus. Why doesn't the keychain cam use such a lens?

A small aperature will increase depth of field, but the key chain cams already have tiny lens aperatures. Making them smaller will decrease their low light video ability, which is already poor because of the CMOS sensor. A shorter focal length will give a wider angle of view and greater depth of field, but you will still have limits. You need a very wide angle lens to have a very large depth of field. And that will cause linear distotion as you can see in the GoPro lens.


So I know there has been talk in the past about people wanting to find ways to retrofit other lenses in place of the stock lens. Some have mentioned the threading being an issue, well I've thought of a couple possible solutions. Perhaps someone (I'd even try it myself if I was pretty confident it would work), could just take an old lens from the standard keycam, drill it out, just saving the threads, and attach a different lens ripped from some other source. Or I believe it could be possible to make almost any shape adaptor with instamorph plastic.

Does anybody more familiar with these lenses and cmos sensors know what type of lens you would even need to use? I mean theres convex, concave, plano convex, convex-concave, and many others. I'd potentially butcher a old keycam in the name of experimentation if I knew something that was actually likely to work. I'm just trying to find a way to get a wider view, without the blurry edges, or a ton of distortion.

Save yourself a lot of trouble and disappointment, and forget trying to make a lens that does all you want. It takes multiple elements, usually with both convex and concave surfaces, and sometimes different lens material to get different refraction indices to bend all color wave lengths the same amount, and usually aspheric curvature to get everything to focus across the entire frame on a flat plane. Even the cheap 808 key chain camera has a 4-5 element lens module. Also, you need a correct IR filter to block that radiation, or your CMOS sensor will not produce correct colors. A good lens that can do all these things well is not cheap, and that's why the key chain cams don't have great lenses. But I think the stock lens has good image quality if the CMOS sensor is propery aligned with the lens axis, EXCEPT for the darkening in the corners (vignetting). That's why we have been on the lookout for a ready made lens module with a slightly wider angle of view... about 65 deg would be about right. But the main reason is not because the depth of field is so bad, but rather to diminish the vignetting.
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Old Feb 10, 2011, 02:14 AM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,889 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isoprop View Post
This method does not work on my #11 HD (sealed with date sticker), received today. I start recording and about 15 seconds later I connect my Motorola wall charger. The red charging light on the camera comes on. After about 5 minutes the red light turns off. After a total time of 20 minutes the yellow light turns on, so I presume the camera changes to stand-by mode. I left the camera running for a total of 140 minutes but only got 20 minutes video (1 file) on my 32GB card. I repeated the test a second time. Same results.
I realize that my Motorola wall charger may use the data pins, but I very much doubt it. Viewed externally, the cable has 2 wires joined together, similar to a 2-wire flat mains cable, just smaller.
Could someone else please confirm that this method does indeed work. I have no luck
OK, I need to revise my post on this. I also confirmed that the camera will not restart a video after the 20 min. stop/save function if a generic USB charger is plugged in after the camera recording is first started manually. It will power the camera to allow a recording to continue if the battery is nearly empty, but the stop/save function wakes up the camera to the fact that it's dedicated charger is NOT powering it, and it stops recording and goes into the flash drive mode, even if there are no data lines to communicate with. If we get continuous recording firmware to eliminate the stop/save/continue function, then the camera should continue to record with a generic USB charger, as long as the recording is manually started first before connecting the generic charger.

I also confirmed that my 4GB card will only hold 73min. and 5 sec. of video in my camera, which records with about 7060 kbps average total data rate.

Finally, I started recording with an empty 4GB card, a fully charged internal battery, and a fresh-off-the-charger Eneloop 2000 mAH AA cell in my emergency charger, and I only got two 20 min. recordings on the card. Since my camera will NOT save a file if it runs out of power, and I have tested to confirm the internal battery has enough power by itself to record two 20 min. clips plus about 5 minutes more before the internal battery stops recording, I can only conclude that the external charger with this high capacity AA cell does not even add 20 minutes of added recording time. The voltage on a freshly charged Eneloop 2000 mAH NiMH cell is 1.57 volts, and the cell after my recording test had a voltage of 1.27V. It must have still been charging the camera battery when the recording stopped, because the charger RED LED was still brightly lit. I plan to recharge the Eneloop AA cell and measure how much charge is put back in to see how much capacity was used. I think the problem may be the Eneloop cell is dropping voltage under load too much, and that causes the camera to shut down prematurely. The Eneloop cells have been criticized for this in other threads.
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Last edited by Tom Frank; Feb 10, 2011 at 01:01 PM. Reason: spelling
Old Feb 10, 2011, 05:11 AM
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ShinG0's Avatar
Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined Jan 2011
41 Posts
Aah I have the strange feeling, that I'm chatting with more than one person...

Quote:
Dear shingo_bg,

dear friend,
thank you, and thank you for your like our items, i promise the HD quality is the same with the frist one, hope you like it, and you can see our video in this link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/ysqe5b http://www.sendspace.com/file/wjxxt2 http://www.sendspace.com/file/9vltf3
i promise we will test it before sent to you. hope you busienss agian.

thank you

- eletoponline365
Quote:
Dear eletoponline365,

Hello friend.
I'm afraid exactly from that - I don't want my New second camera to be the same as the first one, because the first one has focus problems. We already discussed that. I told you before, that I sold my old camera with the focus problems and now I want new camera without focus problems, so I'm asking you to get another camera and do test specifically for this camera and send me real videos from specifically this camera.
I have already the videos that you sent me, but I need videos from brand new camera, the same camera (unit) that I'm gonna get after I pay for it.
Thank You for your understanding.
Best wishes.
Svilen.


- shingo_bg
And the reply of the other ebay seller, that I have asked to send me real videos specifically by a new camera:

Quote:
Dear shingo_bg,

hi dear friend
sorry to reply u later,i have sent the real videos and the pictures to your gmail,you can have a look,wish you will like them,anyprblems,please contact me freely,it's my pleasure
best wishes
shannon

- powerdigital898
Quote:
Hello my friend.
I got your e-mail. But the content is not what I asked for. I'm asking you to get another camera and do test specifically for this camera and send me real videos from specifically this camera.
I have already the video and images that you sent me (eletoponline365 sent me the same), but I need videos from brand new camera, the same camera (unit) that I'm gonna get after I pay for it. I want to be sure, that my second camera does not have the same problems with the focus as my first one, which is already sold and now I want brand new camera without focus problems.
Thank You for your understanding.
Best wishes.
Svilen.
And the response before 5 minutes...

Quote:
Dear shingo_bg,

hi dear friend
thankyou for your quick response, so sorry to make trouble to you,don't worry, i will send other videos to u tomorrow.today is too late.i will go home now.it's time to for me to leave my company,hope you will wait for me.would you like?thankyou so much!
best wishes
shannon

- powerdigital898
And now I don't have any other options, except waiting.
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Last edited by ShinG0; Feb 10, 2011 at 05:16 AM.
Old Feb 10, 2011, 05:22 AM
Registered User
Joined Nov 2010
2,580 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepinside View Post
Now this is interesting. Can you confirm this please? You are using a 32 GB MicroSDHC card in the HD cam and it works with it, is it right?

Who is the manufacturer of the card? What class is it?
Have you tried to fill it completely by using the car charger or a modified USB cable? If yes, how many hours could you record and how many files were on the card after that? Which mode were you using?
Yes, I confirm that I am using a 32GB MicroSDHC card in my #11 HD camera. I have not yet filled it up because I need a special cable (see my comments at the end of this message), and I can't use the car battery charger in the office! It's nice to have, but totally useless for testing purposes.

Since I only received my camera yesterday I haven't been able to run many tests.
I have only be able to source two 32GB cards. I have a SanDisk, class 2 and a Kingston class 4. These are original and not fake Chinese - I keep MILES away from eBay SD cards!
I have been using these cards in my #3 modified Gumpacks without problems and can get about 7-8 hours continuous (2GB chunks) recording on the #3 Gumpacks.

The Class 2 SanDisk definitely performs better than the Kingston Class 4 for writing, which is the main concern in a camera.
These are the results from H2testw. The results are for 2GB (2000MB) of data. I always fully check my cards with H2testw when I receive them, but I think 2GB of data gives a good enough idea of performance.

Kingston Class 4, 32GB MicroSDHC
Write: 4.53 MBytes/s
Read: 17.1 MBytes/s

SanDisk Class 2, 32GB MicroSDHC
Write: 5.28 MBytes/s
Read: 13.8 MBytes/s

I have not performed any other tests yet, but will post here if nobody beats me to it. The continuous recording (chunks, not one big file, I can't afford to lose all the data) is my priority #1 because I need an absolute minimum of 6 hours continuous, unattended, recording. 8 hours would be better, but I think I'm expecting too much there!

Unfortunately I can't source any MiniUSB sockets with 5 pin solder connections locally, so I can't make a special cable yet. The MiniUSB sockets that I can find locally have 5 pins (obviously) but pin x (no. 4) does not have a solder point. If anybody else wants to make a special cable, be warned to check the number of solder connections before buying.
I'll try and make up a temporary cable using the lead from the emergency battery - when I get the time. Then I will post my findings.
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Old Feb 10, 2011, 07:12 AM
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Prof100's Avatar
Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
16,616 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
There is a freeware Image Stabilization (IS) filter for Vdub called DeShaker (you can google for it). Some third party filters can be utilized in different programs. There's none that comes with the AviDemux software download. Never tried to import the VDub one into AviDemux. IS is not good for AV shots where the camera is often moving a lot... it can smear the image trying to keep it in one place. For hand held it can be OK, but when the border starts getting pulled into the frame, that's more disrupting to my viewing than a steady border with the model moving. But that's just me...
Tom,

The border moving didn't bother me simply because the object was so steady.

Bill
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Old Feb 10, 2011, 09:24 AM
Registered User
Joined Jan 2011
27 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
IS is not good for AV shots where the camera is often moving a lot... it can smear the image trying to keep it in one place. For hand held it can be OK, but when the border starts getting pulled into the frame, that's more disrupting to my viewing than a steady border with the model moving.
Good thing with Deshaker is that you can configure it to your needs. You can disable the moving border completely, although this will cut off part of the frame. I've used Deshaker with video from the HD in different moving conditions and got very good results with it.
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Old Feb 10, 2011, 11:25 AM
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mavlo77's Avatar
The Netherlands
Joined Oct 2008
1,224 Posts
I also have good results with the deshaker in VDUB.

But downside is that the total processing time for a 20 minute movie is getting quite long for denoising,deshakingm, sharpening, color correction.... Even on a quadcore.
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Old Feb 10, 2011, 12:59 PM
Registered User
Joined Jan 2011
16 Posts
New to this...

Hello, total newcomer to this.

Im wondering if anybody has modified one of these KeyCams to take a series of photos, not video...in other words, have it take a photo, say, every two seconds?

I suppose you could extract the photos from video, but this approach would seem to save on memory consumption, and possibly battery consumption?
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Old Feb 10, 2011, 01:31 PM
Dance the skies...
Tom Frank's Avatar
United States, MA, Walpole
Joined Dec 2003
17,889 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isoprop View Post
...
The Class 2 SanDisk definitely performs better than the Kingston Class 4 for writing, which is the main concern in a camera.
These are the results from H2testw. The results are for 2GB (2000MB) of data. I always fully check my cards with H2testw when I receive them, but I think 2GB of data gives a good enough idea of performance.

Kingston Class 4, 32GB MicroSDHC
Write: 4.53 MBytes/s
Read: 17.1 MBytes/s

SanDisk Class 2, 32GB MicroSDHC
Write: 5.28 MBytes/s
Read: 13.8 MBytes/s

I have not performed any other tests yet, but will post here if nobody beats me to it.
...
Those are probably SEQUENTIAL write figures. If you do more testing, try the CrystalDiskMark utility and post what you get for RANDOM write speeds with the 512k block size. 2 MB/sec is a very good number. I will not be surprised if the Sandisk CL2 card beats the Kingston CL4 in that category, too. The Sandisk CL4 card beats most CL6 cards in that category, which is the more important write speed test for these flash cards.

The HD key cam appears to have a much faster video processor chip, and doesn't have dropped frames like the old 808 key cams. I only use CL6 cards, but lesser cards should still give good performance with the HD key cam, but so far no minimum write speed has been identified to assure no dropped frames for the HD key cam.
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Old Feb 10, 2011, 01:59 PM
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ShinG0's Avatar
Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined Jan 2011
41 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJFINAN View Post
Hello, total newcomer to this.

Im wondering if anybody has modified one of these KeyCams to take a series of photos, not video...in other words, have it take a photo, say, every two seconds?

I suppose you could extract the photos from video, but this approach would seem to save on memory consumption, and possibly battery consumption?
If you mean - using the camera as security camera, no - you can't. The Firmware do not have that option, but the still pictures are terrible anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frank View Post
The stills are not extracted from video frames. They are actually up-sized from the CMOS sensor native image, which is an approximate 4:3 aspect ratio rather than the video which is 16:9. And the upsizing is done similar to a digital zoom, where pixels are made bigger to create a bigger image. That's why they aren't as sharp as just saving a video frame as a picture. I can get a much sharper and crisper image by saving a single frame from a video, and sharpening it with an editor, along with any color correction that might be needed, such as diminishing the color saturation and the contrast.
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