Aug 01, 2012, 02:07 AM
IHW Heli Division
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
8,585 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by razorblade Damn it. Your right. I didn't think about that. Crap so maybe the perfect wait up front is somewhere around 120 grams? Too many damn variables. What do you figure?
LOL, i figure i suck with numbers and math. One of the problems though is unknown variables and also changing ones, like the servos. I try not to think about it too horribly much. But we are really just wasting our time with this thing is what i figure More than once in this hobby i have followed numbers and supposed proven theory, just to find out... Everyone was wrong, had they just tried the damn thing, instead of speculate someone might have discovered that everyone was figuring wrong! All because somewhere along the lines a butterfly farted in japan and it caused a chain reaction that threw off someone's measuring equipment by 1/3 of a nanofart and screwed everything up.

There is this pack too, but this one might be too tall vs too long:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._SCT_Pack.html
Aug 01, 2012, 03:09 AM
Registered User
United States, MN, Coon Rapids
Joined Feb 2012
310 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk LOL, i figure i suck with numbers and math. One of the problems though is unknown variables and also changing ones, like the servos. I try not to think about it too horribly much. But we are really just wasting our time with this thing is what i figure More than once in this hobby i have followed numbers and supposed proven theory, just to find out... Everyone was wrong, had they just tried the damn thing, instead of speculate someone might have discovered that everyone was figuring wrong! All because somewhere along the lines a butterfly farted in japan and it caused a chain reaction that threw off someone's measuring equipment by 1/3 of a nanofart and screwed everything up.
Actually my interest in these equations is to keep it simple and just use them as a reference point. I don't expect them to be the "solution to all problems" or the "tell all" but to give me a ballpark idea of what it might feel like before I buy.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk There is this pack too, but this one might be too tall vs too long: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._SCT_Pack.html
I never figured out the max height for a battery that will fit... hard to say. You can use the Duratrax battery for a reference point (its a tight fit under the canopy with the tray mod). That battery is 17mm tall. 31mm wide. 90mm long.

I have to find out how many amps the stock motor is drawing with this new pack tomorrow. I am liking this Duratrax Onyx lipo. Especially it has more oomph. It fits. I can have it shipped from a US warehouse. The price is \$14. I like it all around.

Getting an Align 450 with DFC head pretty soon here. Shat... the regular FBL head costs more than the DFC head. What the hell is with that?
Aug 01, 2012, 09:24 AM
Registered User
Joined Nov 2011
796 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by razorblade Getting an Align 450 with DFC head pretty soon here. Shat... the regular FBL head costs more than the DFC head. What the hell is with that?
Nice! Going the 450 PRO DFC kit route or converting an older 450? I think that Align's pricing department is a bit confused... but it seems like the DFC line is going to be replacing the old FBL heads.

I thought long and hard about the 450 PRO DFC versus the 250 PRO DFC and it eventually just came down to not having enough space to have a 450. I do most of my flying in my back yard and I just barely have enough space to do little circuits with my 200's without risking hitting buildings or vegitation.

I can't wait to see your 450 compared with the 200!
Aug 01, 2012, 11:32 AM
IHW Heli Division
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
8,585 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by razorblade Actually my interest in these equations is to keep it simple and just use them as a reference point. I don't expect them to be the "solution to all problems" or the "tell all" but to give me a ballpark idea of what it might feel like before I buy. I never figured out the max height for a battery that will fit... hard to say. You can use the Duratrax battery for a reference point (its a tight fit under the canopy with the tray mod). That battery is 17mm tall. 31mm wide. 90mm long. I have to find out how many amps the stock motor is drawing with this new pack tomorrow. I am liking this Duratrax Onyx lipo. Especially it has more oomph. It fits. I can have it shipped from a US warehouse. The price is \$14. I like it all around. Getting an Align 450 with DFC head pretty soon here. Shat... the regular FBL head costs more than the DFC head. What the hell is with that?
Personally, I have my doubts about the DFC head. It's more rigid and i'm sure more expensive in a crash vs a \$3 pack of blade links. I'm sure thats why they are cheaper... I don't think they sell DFC spare blade grips? Probably have to buy the whole head. Anyway, even if thats not the case, I just don't know if it's ready to go standard yet. But people seem happy with them in general, i think. I'm just not convinced it's the best design available.
Last edited by IntegrityHndywrk; Aug 01, 2012 at 11:42 AM.
 Aug 01, 2012, 12:44 PM Registered User United Kingdom, England, Enfield Joined Jan 2012 1,267 Posts Finaly got the Bitch tamed I think. I gave up on flying with 3S batteries, too damn scary. Screws were coming loose an alarming rate even with thread lock and since a couple of foam blades let go and shot over my head, I've bottled out and gone back to 2S batteries but with the V200 motor which is much more relaxed flying. All the MG servos seem to be behaving themselves now, no more tail spinning. Bought a Gens Ace 2S 1800mah 20C battery to try out today and I'm sure I'll be buying more of these. It just fits the tray lengh wise, and is the same width as the frame. Weight seems perfect, had it hovering hands off with no trim needed. Was getting an average of about 7 to 8 minutes per flight with a bit left in the tank.
Aug 01, 2012, 12:56 PM
Registered User
Joined Apr 2011
1,886 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk Personally, I have my doubts about the DFC head. It's more rigid and i'm sure more expensive in a crash vs a \$3 pack of blade links. I'm sure thats why they are cheaper... I don't think they sell DFC spare blade grips? Probably have to buy the whole head. Anyway, even if thats not the case, I just don't know if it's ready to go standard yet. But people seem happy with them in general, i think. I'm just not convinced it's the best design available.
I agree.
There's a good reason for the Stabilizer, and it's radius arms on a conventional FBL head. They smooth out the motion of the head, and take some of the load off the downlinks, and swash balls. The DFC head can't tolerate any motion of the feathering shaft, so you have to use hard dampers to keep the blades from moving around in the head. If you use soft dampers the links can pull out of their threads.
That's the bad part. The good is that it's much simpler, has fewer parts, and if set up right, more agile for 3D. The jury's still out on them, some like them, some go back to the conventional FBL heads.
 Aug 01, 2012, 01:05 PM Registered User Joined Apr 2011 1,886 Posts [QUOTE=razorblade;22323248]Actually my interest in these equations is to keep it simple and just use them as a reference point. I don't expect them to be the "solution to all problems" or the "tell all" but to give me a ballpark idea of what it might feel like before I buy. ************************* Here's another equation you might find useful. It takes what you already know, and gives you what you want to know, Flight Time. FT= (new bat in mah/stock batt in mah)*FT with stock batt. For example, if FT=(2000/1500)*5.5 Then FT=7.3 minutes This is the flight time with the new battery.
Aug 02, 2012, 01:19 AM
Tree Trimmer
alex va.
Joined Oct 2008
574 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk 5-10 milliohms per cell is still very good. Sometimes lipo cells just have crazy issues. But if a pack ever gives you flight anomalies i would discontinue use. What method are you using to check your internal resistance? I would start worrying when it gets above 10 per cell. If it goes above 20 it probably won't power your helicopter properly at all any longer.
IntegrityHndywrk; I'm using my i charger. It handles many tasks. The only thing it doesn't do is to give me safe numbers of IR, Like very good ,good ,poor, and throw it away. And yes your correct, I don't fly with a problem battery once I find out that something is wrong with it. The trouble is ,I had three batteries misbehaving at the same time. I'm thinking I may have let them sit for too long with a full charge on them while I was doing a repair job. They sat for approx. a month.
iCharger 208B battery charger
Main Features:

350W powerful battery charger.
20A maximum charge current, discharge and battery cycle modes.
Handels 1-8 cell LiPo, Li-Ion, and LiFe (A123), 1-18 cell lead-acid, as well as 1-25 cell NiMH and NiCd batteries.
Built-in balancer for up to 8 cell LiPo, Li-Ion, or LiFe (A123) batteries.
Foam cut and motor drive modes.
Battery internal resistance measurement.
Support firmware upgrade via USB port.
Battery charge and discharge
Aug 02, 2012, 01:37 AM
IHW Heli Division
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
8,585 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bonner IntegrityHndywrk; I'm using my i charger. It handles many tasks. The only thing it doesn't do is to give me safe numbers of IR, Like very good ,good ,poor, and throw it away. And yes your correct, I don't fly with a problem battery once I find out that something is wrong with it. The trouble is ,I had three batteries misbehaving at the same time. I'm thinking I may have let them sit for too long with a full charge on them while I was doing a repair job. They sat for approx. a month. iCharger 208B battery charger Main Features: 350W powerful battery charger. 20A maximum charge current, discharge and battery cycle modes. Handels 1-8 cell LiPo, Li-Ion, and LiFe (A123), 1-18 cell lead-acid, as well as 1-25 cell NiMH and NiCd batteries. Built-in balancer for up to 8 cell LiPo, Li-Ion, or LiFe (A123) batteries. Foam cut and motor drive modes. Battery internal resistance measurement. Support firmware upgrade via USB port. Battery charge and discharge
Oh yeah, thats a nice charger. Well, like i said. I would probably start looking into replacing them as they get closer to 20mΩ. About your batteries... YES! a month is too long to leave them fully charged. You should not leave lipo batteries fully charged for more than a few days. Think of it like this. When they are at full charge they are degrading over time. If i think i'm going to be longer than 2-3 days some times i'll stick them in the fridge. The cold slows down the chemical process involved in the degradation of the electrolyte inside the cells. But again. I wouldn't leave them fully charged even in the fridge for more than 4-5 days.

Since your charger is so nice, i'm sure it has a discharge function too. it takes longer than a heli though I pretty much plan on replacing my packs regularly. So i don't worry about it much any more. Turnigy makes a decent quality pack for cheap. Thats what i've been using. For \$10 for a 2200 mAh 3S pack it's not too shabby. I charge and fly my packs almost every day if i can. Sometimes 2-3 times each. They get degraded quicker each time you charge them too. Charging them past 1C is likely to do some damage too , even if they say you can go higher. I found this web site very informative in the care and charging practice of my lipo batteries. Even though i've gotten lazy. I just have too many packs to worry about any more.
 Aug 02, 2012, 04:23 AM Team WarpSquad United Kingdom, England, Royal Leamington Spa Joined Jun 2011 3,001 Posts A nice simple table in this PDF which even if it's not a lab test gives you a rough idea about LiPo degradation over time vs temp & charge. http://uterc.org/files/LipoStorageTips.pdf
Aug 02, 2012, 08:44 AM
IHW Heli Division
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
8,585 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by thwaitm A nice simple table in this PDF which even if it's not a lab test gives you a rough idea about LiPo degradation over time vs temp & charge. http://uterc.org/files/LipoStorageTips.pdf
That graph is from batteryuniversity.com. The link i provided goes into some details about lipo batteries. But at the top of the page has a link to that web site too. They get into the more technical stuff. It's a pretty cool web site too for more detailed battery info.
Aug 03, 2012, 01:03 AM
Tree Trimmer
alex va.
Joined Oct 2008
574 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk Oh yeah, thats a nice charger. Well, like i said. I would probably start looking into replacing them as they get closer to 20mΩ. About your batteries... YES! a month is too long to leave them fully charged. You should not leave lipo batteries fully charged for more than a few days. Think of it like this. When they are at full charge they are degrading over time. If i think i'm going to be longer than 2-3 days some times i'll stick them in the fridge. The cold slows down the chemical process involved in the degradation of the electrolyte inside the cells. But again. I wouldn't leave them fully charged even in the fridge for more than 4-5 days. Since your charger is so nice, i'm sure it has a discharge function too. it takes longer than a heli though I pretty much plan on replacing my packs regularly. So i don't worry about it much any more. Turnigy makes a decent quality pack for cheap. Thats what i've been using. For \$10 for a 2200 mAh 3S pack it's not too shabby. I charge and fly my packs almost every day if i can. Sometimes 2-3 times each. They get degraded quicker each time you charge them too. Charging them past 1C is likely to do some damage too , even if they say you can go higher. I found this web site very informative in the care and charging practice of my lipo batteries. Even though i've gotten lazy. I just have too many packs to worry about any more.
Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me. Bill
Aug 03, 2012, 10:06 PM
Registered User
United States, MN, Coon Rapids
Joined Feb 2012
310 Posts
[QUOTE=clearprop88;22326989]
Quote:
 Originally Posted by razorblade Actually my interest in these equations is to keep it simple and just use them as a reference point. I don't expect them to be the "solution to all problems" or the "tell all" but to give me a ballpark idea of what it might feel like before I buy. ************************* Here's another equation you might find useful. It takes what you already know, and gives you what you want to know, Flight Time. FT= (new bat in mah/stock batt in mah)*FT with stock batt. For example, if FT=(2000/1500)*5.5 Then FT=7.3 minutes This is the flight time with the new battery.
Thanks for the flight time equation. It makes sense. I get it!
 Aug 03, 2012, 10:44 PM Registered User Joined Apr 2011 1,886 Posts You're welcome. I hope you find it useful.
Aug 05, 2012, 01:43 AM
IHW Heli Division
United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
8,585 Posts
Fun day with the 4f200!

Today was very fun and very informative for me! Long story short i flew a lot then crashed real bad! Then fixed everything but only had CF blades. They, in my opinion are not as good as my Trex 250 blades. Especially on the 4f200 with no feathering or dampeners of any kind. They are too rigid and create too much strain on the motor in hard/fast pitch maneuvers. My Turbo ace 352 could not handle them without kicking the tail. I will maybe try the stock motor tomorrow but i don't think an extra 100-200 rpm will do me much better.

This was a very good and fun flight! The canopy is super bright and the camera and myself seem to be able to see it very well! however! It didn't survive the very next flight! The very next flight after this the wind picked up soooo strong that the heli blew over my head and i lost all orientation. Dive bombing into the ground! I will be uploading that video later with the end cut off. No one wants to hear me shouting expletives after crashing my favorite helicopter because of the wind! lol.

Hobbywing Skywalker 20A ESC.
Turbo Ace 352 motor with 18T pinion.
Stock servos & servo arms.

 4f200 - Very windy 3D flight! (5 min 47 sec)

The next flight:
As i was flying quite happily with not much worry, since I am well experienced in flying in these winds off the coast of Florida. I suppose i may have became a little over confident and let the heli drift closer to me due to the wind. A very strong gust or maybe even a gale starts sweeping through and i don't even notice. It blew the helicopter right over my head and i lost orientation and crashed! I saved everyone the pain of hearing me scream expletives after crashing... Well i may have left one, but believe me it got worse. This is my favorite helicopter, So after seeing the heli bounce and after getting closer and seeing the blades all broken, probably all the shafts and everything bent and ready for a total rebuild I was pretty damn upset... All 3 servos and who knows what else.

 4f200 - Me vs. Wind - Wind won. (0 min 39 sec)

Oh yeah, it didn't strip the gear... Weird right? broke 2 blades and all 3 servos. But the gear is like new. lol.