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Old May 17, 2012, 10:22 AM
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It is worse than that.

Folks, just in recent history this has cost the lives of two pilots on a UPS 747, and likely another 747 also. A lipo fire on board an aircraft is not very survivable unless you are VERY close and low to an airport. The smoke is so dense that it makes seeing instruments tough. And aluminum melts at very low temperatures.

Would not surprise me at all that the only way to ship them in bulk will be by sea, and even then, not sure how they would get to your door.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_991
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6
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Old May 17, 2012, 10:44 AM
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Air safety is far more important that speed of delivery for these batteries: something will work out which effects a good compromise.
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Old May 17, 2012, 12:55 PM
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Have to wonder if there's a gas fire suppression system which could be retrofitted into cargo areas on planes. I see FM-200 says it's not suitable for metal fires, but wonder if a different one is.
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Old May 17, 2012, 01:24 PM
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I wonder how much money the Goverment and shippers such as UPS have made off of the $5 per gall Haz. Mat fee on glow fuel over the past 25 years or so. I use to get two 4 gallon cases delivered to me about every month and even more when I was first learning to fly helis. Some weeks I burned 3 gallons just hovering in my parking area after dark when the wind died down using flood lights to see.

I have said for years that all of this will lead to a Haz, Mat fee . Perhaps in the case of LiPolys it would be justified to cover the extra cost of the fire supression required but in the case of glow fuel it was just another form of taxation. How many glow spiles have required a Haz. Mat. team to clean them up?

Charles
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Old May 17, 2012, 04:10 PM
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The HazMat fee is not all about extra equip or the cost of cleanup in the event of a spill.The system is mostly to make sure that they are packaged and loaded in the appropriate area and the person actually in charge of them during shipping(driver or pilot) is aware of exactly where they are in the load and what to do in the event of a problem.Also that 2 distinctly different hazard classes arent together.Example:Explosives and detonating devices by themselves pose some risk but not nearly the same as loading them together in the same compartment and/or in proximity to each other.The same is true of a potential fire initiator and flammables.
You certainly would want to make sure you dont stack boxes of glow fuel ontop of a box of LiPos.Without proper labeling how are you even going to know how to organize a load or keep them separated?
You can never make anything 100% safe.Its all about managing a risk to keep the potential for disaster as low as reasonably possible.
If the risk is not communicated at least with proper labeling this task is impossible and its only a matter of time before something bad happens.
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Old May 17, 2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerocal View Post
The HazMat fee is not all about extra equip or the cost of cleanup in the event of a spill.The system is mostly to make sure that they are packaged and loaded in the appropriate area and the person actually in charge of them during shipping(driver or pilot) is aware of exactly where they are in the load and what to do in the event of a problem.Also that 2 distinctly different hazard classes arent together.Example:Explosives and detonating devices by themselves pose some risk but not nearly the same as loading them together in the same compartment and/or in proximity to each other.The same is true of a potential fire initiator and flammables.
You certainly would want to make sure you dont stack boxes of glow fuel ontop of a box of LiPos.Without proper labeling how are you even going to know how to organize a load or keep them separated?
You can never make anything 100% safe.Its all about managing a risk to keep the potential for disaster as low as reasonably possible.
If the risk is not communicated at least with proper labeling this task is impossible and its only a matter of time before something bad happens.
I'm confused you said absolutely nothing which justifies the fee. Everything you mentioned is simply best practices for safe cargo handling. Where does all the money go?
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Old May 17, 2012, 04:19 PM
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OK but $20 extra for a 4 gallon case of fuel back when I purchased Red Max 15% nitro for $40 a case and then has mat fee raised it to $60 seemed a bit much.

Liion button cells have caused most of the LiPo fires or atleast the ones I bothered to read up on .

Charles
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Old May 17, 2012, 04:23 PM
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I'm confused you said absolutely nothing which justifies the fee. Everything you mentioned is simply best practices for safe cargo handling. Where does all the money go?
Chronosynclastic infundibulum.
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Old May 17, 2012, 04:29 PM
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I'm confused you said absolutely nothing which justifies the fee. Everything you mentioned is simply best practices for safe cargo handling. Where does all the money go?
Most goes to insurance and permit fees.There is also the increased labor involved in logistics and training.Im pretty sure the shippers themselves make very little off the fee charged to the customer.
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Old May 17, 2012, 09:31 PM
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Have you priced out a 747f lately?

Show me any industry where more regulation does not cost more. I deal with haz mat almost every day I work, and it requires time, training, special handling, an extra haz mat specialist to be at the aircraft, etc, etc.
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Old May 18, 2012, 01:11 AM
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Hi,

I wonder if A123 cells will make a come back as a result of these new regulations...

Mickydee
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Old May 18, 2012, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimbeaver View Post
Have to wonder if there's a gas fire suppression system which could be retrofitted into cargo areas on planes. I see FM-200 says it's not suitable for metal fires, but wonder if a different one is.
There is, that's why UPS and FEDEX aren't affected. USPS mostly relies on empty space in passenger aircraft and contracts space on competitors aircraft.

Maybe they should just make giant LiPo bags
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Old May 18, 2012, 10:04 AM
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Maybe they should just make giant LiPo bags
Somehow I think the quantity of batteries would win vs the sack.
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Old May 18, 2012, 11:30 PM
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Geez.Some ppl just dont get it.The USPS does not use a "fleet".While they may ship stuff on dedicated aircraft if the volume is high enough much of what they ship internationally is done on passenger aircraft as excess cargo.With PPL ONBOARD .
I wonder how many lithium batteries each passenger brings aboard a plane considering: computers, tablets, cell phones, hearing aids, handheld games, watches, etc.
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Old May 19, 2012, 02:54 AM
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I wonder how many lithium batteries each passenger brings aboard a plane considering: computers, tablets, cell phones, hearing aids, handheld games, watches, etc.
What does it matter? They are allowed in carryon baggage or in devices in direct possession(attended).The point of the whole thing here is that they arent packed in some obscure location down in the belly of a plane where noone can readily get tto them even if they could identify where they were amid piles of boxes and baggage.Being in a cargo hold pretty much puts them in the category of being
"unattended".Havent we heard that term somewhere else before?

Its common sense.Wait...
Nevermind.I just realized that doesnt apply anymore.
Warnings arent really warnings anymore.
They are everywhere.Warnings arent really warnings they are just to satisfy the lawyers.

Was there a point in all of this?
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