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Old Jul 22, 2012, 08:38 AM
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Help!
Schreder Airmate HP-8

I know this is a very diverse group with an incredible collective knowledge base.
I am looking for a line drawing, and or photos of this one of a kind sailplane. The HP-8 is the glider in which, George Moffat started his contest career, and set World Soaring records at El Mirage in 1962. The Glider is in Elmira but to my knowledge it is still in restoration. Any help would be appreciated with obtaining useful data. Thanks Larry
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 09:26 AM
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Ok Larry let's see if I can get this done for you, hope it work's out. The 3-view is probably from Soaring magazine but it's also in my book 10,000 feet and climbing, The avaition adventure's of Richard E. Schreder.
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Old Jul 22, 2012, 11:26 AM
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Larry you might want to contact some old time SHA members.

Also DIck Schreder was based in Bryan Ohio and had a octagon home at the Airport.
Several SHA workshop meetings were held there.

I recall an amazing collection of projects and wonderfull stories.

I dont have anything re the HP-8 tho. sorry.

Bob
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 08:45 AM
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Prodjx,
Thank you very much for the tip and the picture. The HP-8 reminds me a little of an RJ5 Fuse with a Cirrus planform wing. I have just read George Moffats "Winning on the Wind" again, and just finished Winning ll the updated version. The late 50's through the early 70's was such a magic time for Sailplane development and design, and much credit must be given to George Moffat who developed the strategies for modern sailplane racing. By the way I appreciate the tip on Schreders book. I bought it yesterday!!!! I will pass on that Robert Drews movie The Sun Ship Game is now available on DVD , I got mine from Amazon. This movie offers great insight in to the rise of George Moffat's domination of US soaring competition. You can also see full size ships from that era that are now just memories. LJ
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 09:53 AM
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I glad you can use the info Larry. 10,000 Feet.... is one of my favorite book's and I'm sure it'll be one of your's too. Do you plan to do a model of the HP-8? I have thought about doing on of the 10 as it was one of Richard's first to be MFG. Oh btw I've gotten a Wristocrat nib recently. One of your favorites I'm sure.LOL
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 10:16 AM
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Prodjx,
It is a possibility that there could be an HP-8 it is a pretty simple shape. I need to finish the DFS 24 that Dennis and I started way to long ago. Some of the Germans involved with the Phoenix want to see it fly and there is a visit of the reminaing principles planned for the Wasserkuppe. I would like to do something to honor George Moffat and honestly the HP-8 is the only airplane I can remember him showing any affinity towards. The others were described the same as one would describe a particular spanner in a box....It could happen I am definitely drawn to the gliders of this period...And the Sun Ship Game had a huge impact on me...as evidence from my trip to the east coast last weekend....I decided there was room for one more in the Jolly air force....
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
I would like to do something to honor George Moffat and honestly the HP-8 is the only airplane I can remember him showing any affinity towards.....
Larry,

If you can find a copy of "Winning on the Wind", grab one and give that a read. A good portion of that soaring classic is his experiences, likes and dislikes about many of the '60s and '70s vintage sailplanes. He was a pretty devout Schempp-Hirth guy and I believe still flies a Discus.

His first World Championship win was in the Nimbus prototype (Open Cirrus fuselage w/ flapped, stretched wings). That'd be a cool one to do with modern airfoil and I don't believe it's been done in any scale before.

If you can't find the book, let me know and I'll loan you my copy. Fantastic read,


Mike
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 11:29 AM
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Mike, please see post #4 above. I have read the book several times and have total admiration for George Moffat and his approach.... He is both realistic, and incredibly able to self evaluate... I love the seen in Sun Ship Game where he starts off with Most of the competitions I have been in only 10% of the contestatnts are capable of winning.... An amazing competitor and very honest..
If you have not read Winning ll he shares even more insight...LJ
All are avialable through Amazon...The next book I will look for is, Gaggle of 1
I am honored that you would consider loaning me your copy..I procured huge concessions from Philip Kolb before I would leave my autographed copy with him to read..
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 03:33 PM
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Is that the God Cirrus?
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 03:47 PM
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Mike, please see post #4 above.
Whoooopppsssss... Evelyn Wood Speed Reading course lets me down yet again. Sorry about that.

If you like the '70s-era stuff, this is a pretty interesting DVD:

http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/video...Case-Front.jpg

It's filmed in this bizarro Spaghetti Western style in black and white. A couple of interviews w/ the ninjas of the day (Holighaus, Reichmann, Moffat, et al). Not something to watch w/ the wife but some great shots of the first generation glass ships in action and an interesting point in history that shows how far the sport has come.

Moffat's application of the "seconds add up to hours" yachting approach to soaring was obviously pretty huge to the sport. If you like that stuff, check out Helmut Reichmann's "Streckensegelflug" (I would recommend the English version ). That's "The Bible". Uber technical but huge insight that you could use for your GPS Triangle racing.

Back on topic:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...1671/index.htm
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 04:50 PM
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Thanks for posting the 3-view of the HP-8.

It brings back fond memories of learning to fly. My glider log shows 9/15/63 as the day of my first dual in a sailplane. I learned to fly at Wurtsboro, NY and Moffat, the HP-8 and a few other hot planes and pilots were stationed there.

I helped put the HP-8 together at least twice, maybe more often. The center section was very heavy and I always seemed to be one of the guys who helped pick that up while it was going together. This may have been prior to my first lesson since I soloed a Champ before starting on sailplanes.

George was very generous in allowing many of the sailplane pilots to fly the HP-8. The word was that the stick was dead neutral where pitch was concerned and you had to fly it with one eye on the ASI. Eventually George sold it and the new owner crashed it very shortly thereafter.

On my first hour long solo in the 2-22 I watched George Moffat out climb me in the HP-8. A very dramatic sight. It was also my first time above 5,000 feet and I was impressed with everything. Gliders all over the sky, the enormously heavy HP-8 flying like a bird. Me looking at the field and wondering how long it would take to get down. A fantastic spring flight after a winter of fifteen minute glides to the ground.

Anyway, I copied the 3-view. If I build a model it'll probably be a small one.

Wurtsboro has become a relatively sleepy place these days with less than a tenth the flying of its heyday. Last time I was there Dick Paggett was still towing at 82. He towed me up on some memorable flights. He was a pilot before WWII and flew B-17's. If he's still there he'd be a really good resource on those days. He and an ex Messerschmitt pilot were partners in a Ka-6 and if they had a beer or two in them would start talking about missions to see if they could figure out if the ever fought each other.

I love to babble about those times myself.

Pete
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 05:50 PM
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Pete,
I am very interested in chatting with you about the HP-8 and the doings at Wurtsboro. Please contact me at ljolly@aol.com and I will give you my contact information. I thank everyone for the help on this one. I went to see Dennis Brandt today who happened to have in his possesion a 1962 OSTIV Review.
Talk about paydirt, among other things it explains why some places list the span at 10.25 m and some at 15.65 m. Apparently to sets of tips???? The 3 view Projx supplied appears to be the better one. I am interested in the color of the N number and the race number 25. Also in his books George refers to the constant need to tune the wing with Micro ballons and resin mixture. Can you remember if the HP-8 was painted overall white ???? Of interest to me is that George was very industrious wih his hands??? Did he ever speak of any modeling in his pre- full size days???
Thanks all for the help, it might be necessary to do thiss in third scale. LJ
Prodjx, Moffat's Cirrus lives in Switzerland, I had to settle for serial #37
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 07:12 PM
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Even the Sterling model of the Cirrus is getting pricey $40.00. I used to have a set of plan's autographed by Dale Willobe (sp) He did all the photo's and discription on the plan's.
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Old Jul 23, 2012, 09:57 PM
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Did he ever speak of any modeling in his pre- full size days???
I bet the sailboat racing had a lot to do w/ his "building" skills.

The clip of him cutting the wingtips off of the Nimbus w/ a large woodworking hand saw in "The Sunship Game" is worth the price of admission for that video!
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 05:07 PM
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I bet the sailboat racing had a lot to do w/ his "building" skills.

The clip of him cutting the wingtips off of the Nimbus w/ a large woodworking hand saw in "The Sunship Game" is worth the price of admission for that video!
Watching him (in person, at Wurtsboro) smooth on micro balloons and later sand them off to fill rivet depressions and things like that is exactly what any sailboat racer did every spring except I think the stuff we used was called Duratite putty.

Got the film from Amazon and it was like a trip down the time tunnel.

Almost eerie to watch. This was probably two years after the HP-8.

Pete
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