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Old Jun 03, 2014, 04:22 PM
Aerobatics!
JGAF's Avatar
United States, CA, Carlsbad
Joined Nov 2007
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well I'm not really complaining about the effects and stuff it's just my opinion, I'm glad jimbo makes his videos because they're enjoyable for other people. I have ADHD when it comes to flying so if a plane is just cruising around I get bored quick. an no discussion regarding the aroso doesn't belong in the Swiss fish thread whether he ships to the US, Switzerland, or Timbuktu. I figured since it had been brought up then Id divulge the information as a large majority of the users on this website are from the u.s. Doh'

Really not trying to make you happy Chris, go nitpick someone else for a while, mmmK bud?
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 07:09 AM
Slopeaholic
jimbo320's Avatar
Joined May 2011
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Well i had another fly with my swiss fish today. Wind was about 10-15 mph on the slope i hoped to fly it on. I got it carving quite nicely, but the CG seems to be way far forward to me at 75mm, it needed a whole bunch of down elevator whilst inverted. What are you using for neutral inverted flight? I also flew my Multiplex lucky in the same lift and it comprehensively out performed the fish (but then it is pretty much a mouldie). That said the fish is a good laugh to fly, if an old and outdated design, but requires a good investment in time and effort to get it flying right, respect to those who produce great flying vids with it, Dawson et al. Will try and get a bit of a vid later.
Cheers,
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 09:42 AM
Flagstaff, AZ
dawsonh's Avatar
USA, AZ, Flagstaff
Joined Mar 2003
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Jimbo:

Hang in there. A twenty ounce Le Fish should be a great flyer in that condition.

Your CG should be close at 75 mm. Tape a small weight on the fuse behind the existing CG and work it back until your upright and inverted level flight has close to neutral trim. I usually set the CG so I am neutral on up and down lines (upright and inverted) have to hold just a bit of up/down elevator for level upright/inverted flight.

Make sure you have snap flaps set correctly… neutral camber with no elevator engaged and 7-10 degrees of camber/reflex when pulling/pushing "normal" elevator for banked turns and loops.

If you have set a bit of wing camber for upright flight, via switch or throttle stick, make sure you reverse it when going inverted.

Post some video. I am sure we can help you get your Le Fish flying at full potential. Le Fish has been around for a while; but it's design and airfoils are sound; the aircraft continues to be refined. However I think for many of us, Le Fish is less a specific thing and more of a state of mind.

Dawson
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 10:16 AM
Feeling FrSky
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...
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 12:46 PM
Slopeaholic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawsonh View Post
Jimbo:
Hang in there. A twenty ounce Le Fish should be a great flyer in that condition.
Im not saying i wasnt happy with it. On the contrary i was. The only slight disappointment was its ability for 'sustained' aerobatics, probably due to poor energy retention, unlike my slippery lucky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawsonh View Post
Your CG should be close at 75 mm. Tape a small weight on the fuse behind the existing CG and work it back until your upright and inverted level flight has close to neutral trim. I usually set the CG so I am neutral on up and down lines (upright and inverted) have to hold just a bit of up/down elevator for level upright/inverted flight.
Will experiment. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawsonh View Post
Make sure you have snap flaps set correctly… neutral camber with no elevator engaged and 7-10 degrees of camber/reflex when pulling/pushing "normal" elevator for banked turns and loops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawsonh View Post
If you have set a bit of wing camber for upright flight, via switch or throttle stick, make sure you reverse it when going inverted.
Yes snap flap was off, ill add it on next flight. Perhaps my control of the camber wasnt that good, i havent used it for over 12months. But i did fly it with it off and it still required down elevator. Once i started using the rudder to turn, things improved. Im assuming the ailerons are aligned level with the underside of the airfoil for normal flight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawsonh View Post
Post some video. I am sure we can help you get your Le Fish flying at full potential. Le Fish has been around for a while; but it's design and airfoils are sound; the aircraft continues to be refined. However I think for many of us, Le Fish is less a specific thing and more of a state of mind.

Dawson
Agreed, the fish is charismatic model, and looks nice in the air when its doing its stuff.
Vid is here.

Fishing (3 min 33 sec)
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 01:07 PM
Aerobatics!
JGAF's Avatar
United States, CA, Carlsbad
Joined Nov 2007
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the ailerons should be aligned symmetrically with the bottom and top of the wing. It is a symmetrical airfoil right..?

If you fly these types of models without snap flap, they fly like dogs. That's a really really important thing that many people miss.

Another thing I like to do and I know Steve and Dawson like it too is to setup a spring on your throttle stick for full flap control. If you don't want to mod your radio I really suggest picking up a turnigy 9x because for $65 and a little spring you can have a fully functional glider specific radio.
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 05:36 PM
Flagstaff, AZ
dawsonh's Avatar
USA, AZ, Flagstaff
Joined Mar 2003
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Jimbo:

I agree the Lucky looked more "alive" than your Le Fish on the video.

A light weight Le Fish needs a little different flying style than your typical aerobatic glider. We are flying in relatively light lift with gliders that typically have a slower terminal speed, with less mass/momentum and more drag (due to the fat fuse and thick wing... and general foamy mushiness). Also we tend to pack our maneuvers in a relatively small box. This is very different mentality from flying super efficient and heavier big air aerobats.

As a result we rely less on pure speed/momentum and rely more on flying efficient carved maneuvers and working the "hot" spots on the slope. As per above, snap flaps (and/or 4th axis stick) will give juice to the banked turns and loops, especially if you don't over pull/push the maneuver. We have to fly super efficiently; grab our energy when we can; and pop our maneuvers at opportune moments. Watch how Surfimp uses the mini-bowls and indentations at Elwood. He is really a master at working the micro lift to build energy and timing his maneuvers appropriately.

Ultrabatics is an aggressive style; but it is more subtle style than it looks.

Have fun!

Dawson
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Old Jun 10, 2014, 01:36 AM
Feeling FrSky
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United States, CA, Santa Barbara
Joined Feb 2003
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The MPX plane "comprehensively outperformed" your Le Fish because your Le Fish is not setup correctly at all.

Hard to say for sure but it looks like your elevator rates are not high enough to flip and not low enough to fly smoothly. Suggest you reduce them and add some expo to soften stick center. Also it looked like the plane is morbidly noseheavy. Keep moving the CG back till it flies hands-off inverted. The 70-80mm CG on the plan is a reasonable starting point, but you have to adjust till it flies right.

Once it's trimmed out it will carve around nicely, so long as you fly it smoothly.
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Old Jun 10, 2014, 10:30 AM
Sky Surfers
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Joined Apr 2005
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Yep.....smooth is the groove!
Took mine out yesterday in 18-20 and was amazed at it's retention, @ 17oz., if I was easy on the stix. One poor exit from a manuver and she goes a floppin' but is easily recovered ;o). For a plane that was made for "Ellwood" type lift, "smooth" will extend the envelope albeit a little more intense.
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Old Jun 11, 2014, 09:42 AM
Feeling FrSky
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United States, CA, Santa Barbara
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Gotta keep it on the One.

Bootsy Collins - Stretchin' Out (In A Rubber Band (6 min 55 sec)
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Old Jun 11, 2014, 09:53 AM
Slopeaholic
jimbo320's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfimp View Post
Also it looked like the plane is morbidly noseheavy. Keep moving the CG back till it flies hands-off inverted. The 70-80mm CG on the plan is a reasonable starting point, but you have to adjust till it flies right.
Rechecked this on an accurate balance, it was actually 83mm, i have added a little nose weight to bring it at 80mm for the next flight. I have also increased the throw on the elevator to full mad stab flip rates, and added some expo.
Cheers,
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Old Jun 11, 2014, 05:53 PM
Feeling FrSky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo320 View Post
Rechecked this on an accurate balance, it was actually 83mm, i have added a little nose weight to bring it at 80mm for the next flight. I have also increased the throw on the elevator to full mad stab flip rates, and added some expo.
Cheers,
Could be your neutral trailing edge setting... can we see a photo maybe, taken from the wingtip looking towards the fuselage?

If you've got it biased up or down slightly, that might throw things off in terms of pitch response. If you can put trailing edge trim on a slider this can help, too... you can dial in a bit (via the slider) for light conditions and then take it out when the lift picks up.

Definitely setup a low rate as well, for "normal" flying. And use a LOT of expo on your high rate for Madflight (I use 100%). You'll want to make sure your stab can move a full 90 degrees each way for the best flips.

Lastly make sure (if you haven't already) that your snapflaps are moving the correct direction in response to elevator input:

- "Up" (nose pitches up) elevator should result in the trailing edge drooping to create camber.

- "Down" (nose pitches down) elevator should result in the trailing edge raising to create reflex.

I find around 5mm works best... you want enough to make the pitch response really good, without creating extra drag. Less is typically more, but some is better than none.

Sorry you're having trouble dialing this in, it will be worth it though when you're done.

Steve
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Old Jun 11, 2014, 05:57 PM
Feeling FrSky
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United States, CA, Santa Barbara
Joined Feb 2003
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In other news: I have an Astix (latest development of the Aroso concept) on the way from an acquaintance in the Eurozone. Apparently this is the latest & greatest of the Aroso lineage. I will plan to fly it alongside my ultralight Le Fish and Buzz Evo and film it for you all to see.

Steve
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Old Jun 12, 2014, 02:49 PM
DS Addict
ALEX HEWSON's Avatar
Christchurch, New Zealand
Joined Jul 2005
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Any info on the Aroso or Astix? Would love to buy or build one
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Old Jun 12, 2014, 04:05 PM
Slopeaholic
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Originally Posted by ALEX HEWSON View Post
Any info on the Aroso or Astix? Would love to buy or build one
Alex, Some info here.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2052146
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