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Old Jul 05, 2012, 09:18 PM
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United States, CA, Sacramento
Joined Mar 2006
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Originally Posted by Pipemajor View Post
Guess we should have quite when that first rocket blew up on the pad.
Or the second. Or third, or fourth, or fifth...

We never did make a profit by going to the moon, did we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um55b...eature=related
That home computer you are typing on is an out growth of the space program.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 09:26 PM
Watts is life...
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Bot's like to know where you live
Joined Sep 2003
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Originally Posted by Windrider53 View Post
That home computer you are typing on is an out growth of the space program.
He knows this... he's trying to muddy the waters with fruit.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:02 PM
Libertas in Infinitum
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Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
Joined Feb 2001
312 Posts
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Originally Posted by Pipemajor View Post
Guess we should have quite when that first rocket blew up on the pad.
Or the second. Or third, or fourth, or fifth...

We never did make a profit by going to the moon, did we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um55b...eature=related
Actually ... yes we did. The technology we invented, perfected and implemented have paid themselves a million times over.

I can assure you that those early failures weren't sold to the American public as "economic stimulous" and I can pretty much assure you that those companies that built those rockets didn't get their contracts because they were backed by JFK, LBJ or Nixon campaign mega-bundlers.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:09 PM
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Joined Jun 2010
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The A123 Systems story is to confusing for me to attempt to repeat. I use their li ions batteries in my planes and they are great for that but certainly not for full scale electric cars. Mine came from DeWalt drills.The tool manufacturers quit using them because they never wear out. The tool industry object is to make a drill last just long enough so you won't get mad - and then sell you a new drill. You don't buy them ,you rent them.

Fiskar had a bunch burn up their cars. The DOE is now mad at them and cut of their welfare check. Kiss and tell will get you in trouble. Fiskar was one of A123's biggest customers so was that a good decision? Strange. The Volt caught fire also. I think,but not sure, that was A1 Battery again.

A123 got anywhere from $200 million to 1 Billion $ depends on what article you read. A neighbor and friend bought stock. Uh, lost a bunch so far. They built a huge factory in Detroit. I have an opinion on that .

From what I have read the Fiskar uses 1800 cells all soldered nicely together. I have an opinion on that to.

Bankruptcy in the near future.

Where is this nutso Electric thingey going?
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 12:17 AM
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Dolores, Colorado
Joined Dec 2007
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Originally Posted by Aaron 1 View Post
The A123 Systems story is to confusing for me to attempt to repeat. I use their li ions batteries in my planes and they are great for that but certainly not for full scale electric cars. Mine came from DeWalt drills.The tool manufacturers quit using them because they never wear out. The tool industry object is to make a drill last just long enough so you won't get mad - and then sell you a new drill. You don't buy them ,you rent them.

Fiskar had a bunch burn up their cars. The DOE is now mad at them and cut of their welfare check. Kiss and tell will get you in trouble. Fiskar was one of A123's biggest customers so was that a good decision? Strange. The Volt caught fire also. I think,but not sure, that was A1 Battery again.

A123 got anywhere from $200 million to 1 Billion $ depends on what article you read. A neighbor and friend bought stock. Uh, lost a bunch so far. They built a huge factory in Detroit. I have an opinion on that .

From what I have read the Fiskar uses 1800 cells all soldered nicely together. I have an opinion on that to.

Bankruptcy in the near future.

Where is this nutso Electric thingey going?
Very, very far, were ever you push technologie to new limits you will have failure, but from failure you learn. Apollo 1 cost 3 mans live, it was a simple misunderstanding of athmosphere, it was corrected never happened again.
The first airbags could kill instead of save, it was understood and corrected.
Save cars were built around a very rigged structure, it actually was more dangerous, today the cars crumble, absorb the impact.
We learn, every time something goes wrong we learn from it.

Ventures a fragil, especialy when it includs new ideas and technologie, new markets. That in the beginning a lot of companies fail is the nature of the business.
How many aiplane companies, car companies, power companies, computer and what so ever have failed, dispite goverment backed loans or goverment contracts.

I am always surprised that the party or partygoes of business are so happy to point out that companies fail, or how little business guts they have to try for them self, especialy something new.

How many companies are successfull using government money, thousands, 10 of thousand.
Yes 500 million, 170 million or 90 million are huge sums, bur compared to what is invested each year just a side show.

GM is still alive and again selling and producing more cars than any company in the world, your money, my money, our money, well at work.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 12:36 AM
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United States, OK, Anadarko
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Originally Posted by Schrott View Post
GM is still alive and again selling and producing more cars than any company in the world, your money, my money, our money, well at work.
GM is dying, we should have let it pass.

The Volt is a dismal failure, it should have never been made, I myself was looking into an electric of my own manufacture... sorry I have scrapped the idea in favor of black diesel.

GM was good money after bad and hardly more than a big favor from B.O. to his union buddies.

I know a bit about cars, I know a bit about batteries, what I do know and have seen was a major disaster in the making putting these battery packs in cars.

My next project scraps electric power to run a small 1 liter turbo diesel. 50 mpg running of black diesel. 50/50 waste oil/ diesel mix. less than $2 a gallon. no waiting on a charge, no battery packs to service or replace, life span about 500,000 miles. It will cost half as much as an electric to make if not less. I have an old but well kept mini truck to build it from.

GM was paying to much attention to hippie idiots and not enough to the reality of engineering.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 04:05 AM
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Louisville, KY
Joined Apr 2001
665 Posts
GM is not dying and has paid off their government loans at a profit for the government.

GM has been the leader in electric cars and solar technology for many decades. They hold so many patents that companies like Toyota, Nissan/Renault and most aerospace companies license that we could not let a foreign company gain control of them.

Every Formula One car and every hybrid LeMans car run on A123 batteries and they don't seem to have any problems with them. The International Space Station and most rockets and satellites use A123 batteries as well - so it is hard to call them a failure even with their corporate failings.

The problem that America faces with electric cars and solar energy is Japan and Germany. Their governments are spending tens of billions of dollars a year without blinking and are not deterred by losing a few 100 million dollars.

The Toyota Prius is a top selling car in America because its price is heavily subsidized by the Japanese government and now Toyota is employing the Prius technology across its entire line. Toyota is the top selling brand in America and 15% of its cars employ the electric hybrid technology that the Japanese government funded and are now receiving tax revenues on.

Then there is the Nissan Leaf. It is a pure electric car that no one thought would be more than a concept car. It outsells the Chevy Volt by 10 to 1. Did I mention that it is a pure electric car? Clearly there is a market for pure electric cars in America and Nissan is proving that fact. It costs about a third of the Chevy Volt due to Japanese government subsidies. It is a really nice car and I have driven one. Once you drive a Leaf you won't be nostalgic about internal combustion engines.

The Chevy Volt is the class of these new vehicles but it is just too expensive. Its extra charging engine is not necessary and adds too much expense. It lacks the Leaf's 480v quick charge option too. Nissan is keen to exploit the US tax credit to install 480v charging in the home. I've driven a Volt and it is better than the Prius or the Leaf but it is not worth the extra money.

So 3 cars lead the revolution, a Toyota, a Nissan and a GM. Only the GM goes it alone without any subsidies.

Let's look at the facts at reliability. Toyota has destroyed the reliability records with their Prius Gen 2 cab program. 90% of them hit 100,000 miles without anything but scheduled maintenance. 27% of them hit 1,000,000 miles without anything but scheduled maintenance - on the original battery.

Charging a Nissan Leaf or a Chevy Volt works out to about 15 cents a gallon and uses infrastructure that we have in place now.

Only hippie idiots would think that we would expand our diesel fuel distribution, much less create a new distribution network for waste oil in our current system. Greasels have been around for over 2 decades now and they have not caught on. No one wants to drive behind restaurants and try to bum iffy fuel.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 04:40 AM
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United States, OH
Joined Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by stone_axe View Post
GM is not dying and has paid off their government loans at a profit for the government.
No, it has not.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/gen...ha-dalmia.html
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 06:06 AM
Bagpipes spoken here
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United States, MN, St Paul
Joined Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by WingNut64 View Post
Your article is 2 years out of date.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 07:38 AM
Libertas in Infinitum
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Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
Joined Feb 2001
312 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pipemajor View Post
Your article is 2 years out of date.
And still relevant ... Seeing as how the main vehicle for paying off the loans was via stock sales when the company went public again .... But when your holding shares that are a third less in value than when you purchased it .... You're not going to get much of anything back.

Plus the article explains how GM went around telling people it "paid" its loans back .... Which we now know was a shell game .... Well .... At least those of us not carrying Pom poms know it.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 07:45 AM
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Joined Jun 2004
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Originally Posted by Pipemajor View Post
Your article is 2 years out of date.
Here a couple more current ones;

http://news.investors.com/article/61...hares-fall.htm

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...n-taxpayer-tab
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 07:50 AM
It's 5 O'clock Somewhere
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Dayton, OH
Joined Feb 2006
417 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stone_axe View Post
GM is not dying and has paid off their government loans at a profit for the government.

GM has been the leader in electric cars and solar technology for many decades. They hold so many patents that companies like Toyota, Nissan/Renault and most aerospace companies license that we could not let a foreign company gain control of them.

Every Formula One car and every hybrid LeMans car run on A123 batteries and they don't seem to have any problems with them. The International Space Station and most rockets and satellites use A123 batteries as well - so it is hard to call them a failure even with their corporate failings.

The problem that America faces with electric cars and solar energy is Japan and Germany. Their governments are spending tens of billions of dollars a year without blinking and are not deterred by losing a few 100 million dollars.

The Toyota Prius is a top selling car in America because its price is heavily subsidized by the Japanese government and now Toyota is employing the Prius technology across its entire line. Toyota is the top selling brand in America and 15% of its cars employ the electric hybrid technology that the Japanese government funded and are now receiving tax revenues on.

Then there is the Nissan Leaf. It is a pure electric car that no one thought would be more than a concept car. It outsells the Chevy Volt by 10 to 1. Did I mention that it is a pure electric car? Clearly there is a market for pure electric cars in America and Nissan is proving that fact. It costs about a third of the Chevy Volt due to Japanese government subsidies. It is a really nice car and I have driven one. Once you drive a Leaf you won't be nostalgic about internal combustion engines.

The Chevy Volt is the class of these new vehicles but it is just too expensive. Its extra charging engine is not necessary and adds too much expense. It lacks the Leaf's 480v quick charge option too. Nissan is keen to exploit the US tax credit to install 480v charging in the home. I've driven a Volt and it is better than the Prius or the Leaf but it is not worth the extra money.

So 3 cars lead the revolution, a Toyota, a Nissan and a GM. Only the GM goes it alone without any subsidies.

Let's look at the facts at reliability. Toyota has destroyed the reliability records with their Prius Gen 2 cab program. 90% of them hit 100,000 miles without anything but scheduled maintenance. 27% of them hit 1,000,000 miles without anything but scheduled maintenance - on the original battery.

Charging a Nissan Leaf or a Chevy Volt works out to about 15 cents a gallon and uses infrastructure that we have in place now.

Only hippie idiots would think that we would expand our diesel fuel distribution, much less create a new distribution network for waste oil in our current system. Greasels have been around for over 2 decades now and they have not caught on. No one wants to drive behind restaurants and try to bum iffy fuel.
GM has never paid back all of the taxpayer dollars given to them and they never will. They are 35+ billion dollars in the hole to the american taxpayer. That is the fact of the situation. They paid off the "loans" with money we gave them. Complete smoke and mirrors.

There can be little doubt that Toyota has been the leader in electric/hybrid cars for the last decade or so. GM has not even been a blip on the radar.

GM gets many subsudies from the american taxpayer from free money, tax rebates for taxpayers to very low interest loans.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 07:54 AM
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Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stone_axe View Post
GM is not dying and has paid off their government loans at a profit for the government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stone_axe View Post
GM has been the leader in electric cars and solar technology for many decades. They hold so many patents that companies like Toyota, Nissan/Renault and most aerospace companies license that we could not let a foreign company gain control of them.

Every Formula One car and every hybrid LeMans car run on A123 batteries and they don't seem to have any problems with them. The International Space Station and most rockets and satellites use A123 batteries as well - so it is hard to call them a failure even with their corporate failings.

The problem that America faces with electric cars and solar energy is Japan and Germany. Their governments are spending tens of billions of dollars a year without blinking and are not deterred by losing a few 100 million dollars.

The Toyota Prius is a top selling car in America because its price is heavily subsidized by the Japanese government and now Toyota is employing the Prius technology across its entire line. Toyota is the top selling brand in America and 15% of its cars employ the electric hybrid technology that the Japanese government funded and are now receiving tax revenues on.

Then there is the Nissan Leaf. It is a pure electric car that no one thought would be more than a concept car. It outsells the Chevy Volt by 10 to 1. Did I mention that it is a pure electric car? Clearly there is a market for pure electric cars in America and Nissan is proving that fact. It costs about a third of the Chevy Volt due to Japanese government subsidies. It is a really nice car and I have driven one. Once you drive a Leaf you won't be nostalgic about internal combustion engines.

The Chevy Volt is the class of these new vehicles but it is just too expensive. Its extra charging engine is not necessary and adds too much expense. It lacks the Leaf's 480v quick charge option too. Nissan is keen to exploit the US tax credit to install 480v charging in the home. I've driven a Volt and it is better than the Prius or the Leaf but it is not worth the extra money.

So 3 cars lead the revolution, a Toyota, a Nissan and a GM. Only the GM goes it alone without any subsidies.

Let's look at the facts at reliability. Toyota has destroyed the reliability records with their Prius Gen 2 cab program. 90% of them hit 100,000 miles without anything but scheduled maintenance. 27% of them hit 1,000,000 miles without anything but scheduled maintenance - on the original battery.

Charging a Nissan Leaf or a Chevy Volt works out to about 15 cents a gallon and uses infrastructure that we have in place now.

Only hippie idiots would think that we would expand our diesel fuel distribution, much less create a new distribution network for waste oil in our current system. Greasels have been around for over 2 decades now and they have not caught on. No one wants to drive behind restaurants and try to bum iffy fuel.
That commercial you saw on tv is a lie. The US Gov. investment at GM still stands at 35 billion and going up by the day.

It would have beeen very difficult for a well run oil company like Exxon to pay back $50 billion in loans. There is no way we will ever see all of the money that GM owes us. The union boys got the biggest chunk.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 08:08 AM
Alarm Bells Continuing!
Big Foot 48's Avatar
Arizona
Joined Oct 2001
276 Posts
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Originally Posted by stone_axe View Post
Then there is the Nissan Leaf. It is a pure electric car that no one thought would be more than a concept car. It outsells the Chevy Volt by 10 to 1.
Not any more, Volts getting to use the carpool lanes in California is boosting sales there.
Quote:
U.S. sales of the Chevrolet Volt extended-range plug-in bested the Nissan Leaf battery-electric's for the fifth straight month, with Leaf sales falling behind last year's pace for the first time in 2012, giving pause for those subscribing to Nissan chief Carlos Ghosn's vision of steadily increasing EV sales.

General Motors' Chevy division sold 1,760 Volts in June, more than triple the 535 Leafs sold last month. June represented the second-best month ever for the Volt, which moved a monthly record 2,289 in March. For the year, the Volt has sold 8,817 units, meaning that the model in six months has surpassed last year's total with more than 1,100 vehicles to spare.
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/07/03...traight-month/

Quote:
Charging a Nissan Leaf or a Chevy Volt works out to about 15 cents a gallon and uses infrastructure that we have in place now.
Numbers I've seen put the cost equivalent at about $1,00 a gallon.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 09:40 AM
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RCWorks's Avatar
United States, OK, Anadarko
Joined Aug 2003
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I'm not going to be burning cooking oil, I am burning waste oil/diesel mix 50/50. less than $2 a gallon. No waiting on a charge and it will not burn like heck after an accident.

Also the taxpayers did not have to fund any part of my vehicle. That alone is a thanks.
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