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Old Nov 16, 2001, 05:09 AM
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E3D vs. Diablotin Mini

Anyone care to discuss these two airframes? Strengths, weaknesses, limitations, etc.? Hopefully GaryW will voice his opinion, that would be extremely helpful, especially if he's familiar with the Diablotin. I've got an Endoplasma setup sitting here without a home!
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Old Nov 16, 2001, 09:01 AM
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I first saw a diablotin fly in Japan back in '99 when I was over there competing in the IAM. It was a young french kid,.. stephan Carriere, flying it (glow version). I was very impressed. I couldn't find where to get one so I built a RObbe "Diamant No-limit" with stupidtigre 51. Flew very well,.. same genre of airplane but not like the diablotin,.. too heavy. I've since flown a couple diablotins (not an electric one though), and they were better, but had some characteristics I didn't like, like not enough rudder for my tastes, and too much coupling in knife edge, and they got way too "tippy" in elevators/harriers. The "big E3D" (big yellow one) was then born. I decided to kit it,.. but at a reduced size so it wouldn't require the rather expensive MEC monsterbox (which is very nice, and worth the money, but I though it would be better to market a kit that could use a cheaper gearbox). I scaled it down to the current size (48 inch, 600 squares), changed some things I didn't like, in order to correct knife edge flight, increase rudder authority, and also make it more stable when you're not wiggling the little wiggly bits. A few prototypes later, I had the current design. It would be improper for me to "knock" another kit,.. especially one that I think is absolutely great,.. like the diablotin,.. but I do think the E3D is a bit more "refined" design aerodynamically. Wing loading is a bit better, knife edge is "tuned" to eliminate coupling,.. the rudder is very very effective, and it flies well on a low-buck power system. The downside is that you have to build it, it's not an ARF,.. at least not yet. The diablotin is a GREAT airplane, but I also think the E3D is a great airplane. I happen to know all the developement that went into the E3D, and why each change was made, and it suits my flying style a bit more. I would still like to have a diablotin, because I can't build nearly as well as they can ,.. a diablotin is an absolute work of art.
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Old Nov 16, 2001, 09:36 AM
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While I haven't seen either, I am at the top of the list for an E3D - leaving my co-workers wondering why a 52 yr old cube dweller has been doing cartwheels down the corridor all morning

However, after being in modelling for a while, I cannot figure how something designed to make money, be slung together by people who can't spell "model aircraft" in English, fit into a shiny box, at a cheap store price, and be assembled with five minute epoxy by the short attention span RC flier can be other than inferior than a model designed and kitted by a masterful practising RC flier and built by someone who really cares that the completed model will be as well made as he or she can possibly achieve.

For one thing, I much prefer it when I know that the critical joints that I can't see under covering have been assembled by someone who knows how they relate to the model staying together when the crunch comes.

Will almost certainly be powering my E3D with a MaxCim 13D - that's capable of 500W out of ten cells. If I didn't have every faith that this model can utilise such power (I have a tolerably well trained throttle thumb ), I wouldn't be risking an expensive drivetrain in it. A BARF ... ?
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Old Nov 16, 2001, 09:56 AM
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I agree that I can build a model supirior to an arf. Some of us have jobs that require travel and long hours, and we make good money doing it. So with limited time, some people can only build one-two planes a year. I am scratch building a funfly plane right now. But don't you think it is a little arrogant to jump on the every arf is junk bandwagon? Where can I see the diobolitin mini? I ahve only seen the large version. Also how long of wait is there for a E3D kit? ---Mike
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Old Nov 16, 2001, 10:07 AM
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Not really - I probably have as much spare time as you and are currently seeing my wife through major surgery. Suspect I will spend much of my time at home between now and Christmas jogging up and down stairs, not an activity conducive to model building.

If you want to spend your discretionary income on a model that you have no control over the quality of, that's down to you. I'd rather take a known quality any time over something I have no control over, but that's me. This stuff costs me a lot, and if I have the fortune to get a monday morning special BARF, I could be "not flying" a lot more than if I built my own model. Mine aren't that pretty, but they are light and I know they stay together.

Like most models, you 'see' them on web sites. But I've discussed the E3D with Gary at length, in approximately the same language , and am happy to entrust my RC and drivetrain gear to his design. Info from a website from the middle of Europe - I don't feel quite so happy over that ...
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Old Nov 16, 2001, 11:16 AM
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Depends if you have placed an order yet or not. Orders continue to come in at about the same rate as we get them boxed and shipped, so the new orders get tacked on the bottom of the backorder list. If no new orders came in the next month, we could be caught up about mid december, but that ain't likely, so if you want a kit, the best thing to do is go ahead and place an order. We notify people when their number comes up before we charge them and ship.

I ahve only seen the large version. Also how long of wait is there for a E3D kit? ---Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
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Old Nov 16, 2001, 12:09 PM
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Please don't try so hard to compare these to airplanes !
I am very impressed by Gary's E3D. I'm putting my name on the end of his backlog list. Meanwhile, I'm having a ball with what's left of the flying season here in NC with my Diablotin Mini. My flying ability and experience isn't anywhere near Gary's so I tend to believe what he says when comparing flight characteristics of the two models. What I do know is that the Diablotin Mini is a great looking, reasonably light, quality built model that flys well and does it slowly enough so that my aging reflexes can do aerobatics close in for maximum enjoyment and spectator appeal.
I'm one of those people who spend 2-3 nights each week away from home with my sales job .....so.....an ARF ( if it is high quality )
is very appealing to me. I also understand and appreciate the pride and accomplishment of building a kit or designing and creating a model from scratch, I just choose to give up some of that in order to have more "air time" and less "building time" with the time I have to devote to this hobby. We all have our priorities.
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Old Nov 16, 2001, 11:09 PM
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Derreck,
Yes you make some good points. There is alot of difference between various arfs. I am starting to build simple scratch designs of my own. I just got plans and cores for Azarr's Rotator it will have a Hacker B20-15l 4to1 and I am very pleased with the quality of the cores. Gary has a great plane going and I would like to get on the list but I just sacked out some cash for a couple brushless setups. I would say 75% of my planes are kit and the rest are ARF just because I am lazy. I wish you and your wife the best and my prayers are with you! ---Mike

Gary,
Are you going to have a booth at Toledo? I will more than likely be on your list before long! Thanks again, and if you make an Arf I will be first in line ---Mike
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Old Nov 16, 2001, 11:36 PM
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Of course you have to take into account that Derek will never say an ARF is good unless he gets one for free
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Old Nov 16, 2001, 11:42 PM
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Do you mean we went through this because he is to cheap to buy an ARF!!!!? Just kidding. I just love rc I want to fly! ------------Mike
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Old Nov 17, 2001, 09:49 AM
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Hi Cue
Okay, its a while back, but two editors of what was then Argus Specialist Publications actually tried to get me to BARF. They not only set up a deal for what is now the Kyosho Spitfire, they got a set of retracts and - very unusual for England, they 'found' a NIB sample of a 46.

Nearly got away with it too, except I found out that the scale detail authenticity unit of whoever made this travesty of the finest fighter to grace the skies had included a close replica of a 1942 Luftwaffe Me109 squadron badge with the shelf paper decals. Never mind that the wheels were way out on the wings and retracted inwards.

It would still take a lot to get me to BARF. I admit to a crafty peak inside a brand new 46 aerobatic one, with a view to saving me a little winter build time, but then I realised that all I would be doing was condemming myself to spending money in order to fuss at its over-heavy structure, lack of attention to real detail and worry over what was holding the wing together.

I love RC too - along with CL (have a Fox 35 awaiting a Nobler - one day ), indoor scale rubber power (wish I was good enough) , still have my collection of little diesels for that day when I have space enough for little FF models. Sometimes I think I fly RC only because I have bought all this expensive stuff and thus better justify it.

Hence, my Mills diesels languish, my Fox 35 stays unrun, and I seem to make the RC field less and less as time goes by.

But in the end, when I go to the RC field, I can still say that I built it myself. You need to keep some pride.
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Old Nov 17, 2001, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dereck
But in the end, when I go to the RC field, I can still say that I built it myself. You need to keep some pride.

That would imply you were doing your hobby for someone else, not for yourself if thats what your worried about is saying "you built it yourself" to other people. Who cares what anyone else thinks? I like to build and ARF's, alot of ARF nowdays are built and sold for lots cheaper than you could do it yourself including time.
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Old Nov 17, 2001, 07:59 PM
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Derreck have you ever flown a molded plane like the yak sold by parkflyers.com or the little mustang sold by NESP and others? You think you can build something better? I highly doubt it. You are jealous because somebody can buy something better than you can build. You do have to watch what arf you buy but there are good ones and bad ones just like with built up planes. ---Mike
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Old Nov 17, 2001, 09:19 PM
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No, not a booth at toledo. I'd have to have several designs kitted before thinking of that, then there's the 4 to 6 year wait to get a booth. I usually work the robbe or Futaba booths there anyway (sponsors for my helicopter addiction). I did test fly my prototype today for the next kit. All went very well, so things are moving towards creating a full line of e-power planes. Don't have a name yet,..just a few ideasfor names, but the next plane is the other end of the spectrum from the E3D. I wanted something fast, yet easy to handlaunch, easy to fly,.. and cheap power system of course. The design went just as planned for flying,..actually better than expected. The construction of the wing was a bit more of a pain than I wanted though, so I've gotta re-think the structure. The "tentative" numbers (what the prototype is) are 40 inch span, 7 inch chord, endoplasma direct drive on 6 cells and a 6X6 folder (240 watts) and the airfoil is 10% thick,.. (7/10 of an inch at the thickest point). Looks a little like a flea, but on steroids and a lot faster. Target weight was 32 ounces. Actual weight is 31.8, but with a redesigned wing structure for easier building, I think I'll take out a bit of weight. The wing is pretty bulletproof now. Test flights today were averaging 9 minutes, so there's room for more prop. Handlaunch very easy, climbs right out without sagging like the sp400 pylon planes. Handlaunch with feet firmly planted, no running, etc. i might snap some pics and put them on the website when i have time. no I won't take pre-orders, this is just the first prototype, there's some developement work to be done, and I don't have an ETA, but will announce here on the ezone when it's ready. Next will be the 80" E3D, if nothing creeps in before then.

Quote:
Originally posted by Superbike
Gary,
Are you going to have a booth at Toledo? I will more than likely be on your list before long! Thanks again, and if you make an Arf I will be first in line ---Mike [/B]
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Old Nov 17, 2001, 11:39 PM
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Hi Mike
Now who's being arrogant? Why would I want to buy a clone model with the same colour scheme as the rest of the thousands in the shipment?

Be like buying a Toyota Camry (I have a manual box, V6 Passat wagon, BTW - not many of them around. That's a clue).

Two ways to get a model that matches what you want - design it yourself, or get something like an E3D that can achieve its aim better than anything I can design, for much less effort. Okay, maybe I could get to the E3D level of performance, but I don't care to when I can buy one with the bugs ironed.

Mostly, I intend to go back to what I did when I flew glow - have the only one on the field. If you are happy flying a clone, go for it, no skin off my nose.

BARFs aren't neccessarily quick to build, can need plenty of sorting and are usually heavier - these bulletin boards are full of people wishing they'd bought them a little earlier in the week to get them tearing up the skies by Sunday.

Anyway, for next year, I want a 20 cell pattern quality model - 6lb, 600W+ - and a ten cell baby version running 300W + in a 50oz model, for lunchtime flying sessions. The latter might well have to be a flying wing, just for the heck of it.

How many BARFs meet those specs?

Mostly, it's down to who is the driver.
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