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Old Dec 14, 2014, 09:48 AM
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Joe Raspante's Snow White

I 've wanted to try my hand at this model for at least 50 years....Never having thought I could do it justice,I kept by-passing it, but kept the dream alive.

Now, I've enlarged it to 120 inches, and begun framing the flight surfaces. I'm going to make it full house controls, and I'm wondering about the Aileron sizes.
I'll be 'showing it off' at various flying fields, and I'm looking at some cross wind landings, most likely..

The Sig Rascal 110 is an unbelievably great flyer, and has basically the same wing plan form, sans the undercamber.. If I scale the ailerons from that, how does an undercamber wing react to them ?

This is not for aerobatics, but just for reliving the relaxing slow flight reminiscent of the glory days.

I know they fly fine as single channel models, but I want "MORE"! .
Thanks in advance,
Best regards, Earl.
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Old Dec 14, 2014, 12:00 PM
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Harry D's Avatar
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Earl, please consider RET (rudder/elevator/throttle) for this model. Ailerons won't do ANYTHING for you, won't work well, and will just spoil a beautiful model.

Good luck with it. I for one will be watching with much interest if you decide to do a build log.
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Old Dec 14, 2014, 12:32 PM
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I am with Harry, Earl. If you build Joe Raspante's beautiful vintage design, Snow White, with ailerons you'll just have an Earl modified Snow White. A number of years back I saw the Snow White model flying in RC mode and 3 channels was all the plane needed for gracious flying. Please reconsider keeping the wing in original form.

Soft landings,

Joe
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Old Dec 14, 2014, 01:08 PM
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Ailerons? Blasphemy!
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Old Dec 14, 2014, 04:27 PM
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Ailerons on Vintage models

A subject dear to my heart. Yesterday I spent a very pleasant 1/2 hour ripping around with my Cumulus that is aileron equiped and pretty aerobatic. It is definately enhansed for general sport flying built this way but can certainly be flown rudder elevator very adequitly too.
Not all vintage models will respond well to ailerons. If its high winged with lots of dihedral forget about it. Its a waist of time. Even the shoulder winged Cumulus needs buckets of rudder mixed into the aileron stick in to get the right yaw roll response.
So to Snow white. It is a high winger and I seem to remember a reasonable amount of dihedral? Proabably not a good candidate for ailerons unless you drop the dihedral down till the wing is nearly flat. But then you haven't built a Snow White have you......???

Allan
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Old Dec 14, 2014, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AllanK1 View Post
A subject dear to my heart. Yesterday I spent a very pleasant 1/2 hour ripping around with my Cumulus that is aileron equiped and pretty aerobatic. It is definately enhansed for general sport flying built this way but can certainly be flown rudder elevator very adequitly too.
Not all vintage models will respond well to ailerons. If its high winged with lots of dihedral forget about it. Its a waist of time. Even the shoulder winged Cumulus needs buckets of rudder mixed into the aileron stick in to get the right yaw roll response.
So to Snow white. It is a high winger and I seem to remember a reasonable amount of dihedral? Proabably not a good candidate for ailerons unless you drop the dihedral down till the wing is nearly flat. But then you haven't built a Snow White have you......???

Allan
Well said Allan
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Old Dec 14, 2014, 07:46 PM
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Well said Allan
Oh -yes -it's a high wing, adequately dihedralled, "interrupt it's flight path" type ...
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Old Dec 15, 2014, 03:43 AM
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Looks like a classic candidate for rudder/elevator to me and I reckon moving bits of hat lovely wing up and down at the tips wouldn't do a lot for the handling anyway. Does the original plan show any wash out built in.
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Old Dec 15, 2014, 06:21 AM
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Looks like a classic candidate for rudder/elevator to me and I reckon moving bits of hat lovely wing up and down at the tips wouldn't do a lot for the handling anyway. Does the original plan show any wash out built in.
No, there is no washout shown on this plan. The Ancient plans I'm privy to have a notation "Especially drawn for John Pond", but it doesn't say by whom.There are no movable surfaces indicated.

I do not want to be portrayed as "argumentative", so please consider this...the original is designed as a free-flight model. Hasn't the 'Sacrilege' already been committed, with my addition of RET ?

Let me pose this question, then I'll stop. In the interests of safety, wouldn't the 'ugliness' of the ailerons be offset by the ability to cross controls in a windy environment, and land in a cross wind ?
I intend to show this plane off at Full Scale airshows, where we're limited to landing in a limited area, in front of a large group of people.

Thank you for your input-I appreciate your being candid.
Best regards, Earl.
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Old Dec 15, 2014, 06:37 AM
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I take your point re cross control landings, but in my experience with vintage models, to get anything like a decent aileron response you will need to reduce the dihedral from the figures shown for the free-flight model. With the original dihedral, as was pointed out by the post concerning the Cumulus, it would require a bootfull of rudder as well. Your choice, of course, you are building it, and I hope it turns out well whatever option you choose, it is a lovely looking model.
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Old Dec 15, 2014, 06:48 AM
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Operative words, those..... "in my experience". That answers the question- even with ailerons the response would be 'iffy', at best.

I'm building a "Big Nifty" in the Balsa Builders forum, so I will do a lot of cross wind landings ( on purpose) to get the experience of landing sans ailerons.

Thanks.
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Old Dec 15, 2014, 08:03 AM
In the Dunes
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build two wings - one with ailerons and one without. That way you can make the model a test bed for everybody's theories. IMHO, I'd go with the ailerons. The modern radios have plenty of mixing options for adding rudder. If you're concerned about a small field, I'd consider adding flaps. From what I've read about Joe Raspante, he'd have had all those controls plus if he'd had the radio capability. And just tell all the critics that when they build THEIR Snow White, they can do whatever they want with it. It's your plane and your money. Life's too short not to take a chance or two. Merry Christmas.
Papermache
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Old Dec 15, 2014, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by papermache View Post
build two wings - one with ailerons and one without. That way you can make the model a test bed for everybody's theories. IMHO, I'd go with the ailerons. The modern radios have plenty of mixing options for adding rudder. If you're concerned about a small field, I'd consider adding flaps. From what I've read about Joe Raspante, he'd have had all those controls plus if he'd had the radio capability. And just tell all the critics that when they build THEIR Snow White, they can do whatever they want with it. It's your plane and your money. Life's too short not to take a chance or two. Merry Christmas.
Papermache
I hear what you're saying, but I'm not an 'in your face' kind of guy.. Very few of these models have been built, and I'll bet that ,same as me, those who build it feel peer pressure.....Now that I'm qualified to build it, I still have the deepest respect for the model.. This one stands out, and almost everyone 'feels' it.

I'm trying to balance purity with safety...My main reason for building this model is to show it off...Control-ability is very high on the list of requirements.
Merry Christmas to you, as well.
Earl
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Old Dec 15, 2014, 09:18 AM
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I really love this model. It's on my "bucket list".
Go for it the way you want to build it.
Yes, maybe build two wings...? Then try everything out.
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Old Dec 15, 2014, 09:52 AM
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"Two wings" are out of the question..-it's a ten foot span.
But an aileron wing can be modified, and re-covered, if necessary.
If the lil' flippers prove inadequate, next winter they can be removed..
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