Espritmodel.com Telemetry Radio
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 12:20 AM
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United States, CA, Berkeley
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I had no issues setting up Tarot ZYX manually and the heli behaved just fine. Then I bought the USB dongle and tried using Tarot software which didn’t work so I got here. Downloaded this software and it connected but I have issues. Since seventeen million people are using this software and happy with it, I am sure my frustration is due to my ignorance. Could someone please help me see what I am missing?

The sub-trims in the software didn’t quite work for me because it would not move the horn linearly. Especially for the tail servo where it would not move at all then suddenly jump way past the point I wanted. I thought centering the servos on TX would be OK too, but I decided to just set the sub-trims manually on the unit and it worked just fine. In any case, after centering all servos as perfectly as I can and leveling the swash, when I connect with the software, the monitor tab in the setup menu doesn’t show zeros and they are all off by +/- 3! And collective pitch by a lot more (12~14). What is that based on? When I follow item 3 of the instructions on that page to make them zero and “center” to the software’s liking, neither the servo arms are centered, nor the swash level anymore.

Using reset button in the servo trim tab makes only ch.1 through ch.3 zero on that tab, but tail setup tab has no reset. Plus, reset actually changes my mechanical setup and not just zeroing the values in the software. After all this, still monitor tab has other ideas about what is zero and what is not.

1. How can I connect and only bring up the setup that is already on the unit without having the software change anything and have it accept all centered and all zero starting point the way I have it?

2. How can I save the setup exactly the way it already is on the unit? And how can I recall or reload it later.
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 01:32 AM
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New Zealand, Taranaki, New Plymouth
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asasan View Post
I had no issues setting up Tarot ZYX manually and the heli behaved just fine. Then I bought the USB dongle and tried using Tarot software which didn’t work so I got here. Downloaded this software and it connected but I have issues. Since seventeen million people are using this software and happy with it, I am sure my frustration is due to my ignorance. Could someone please help me see what I am missing?

The sub-trims in the software didn’t quite work for me because it would not move the horn linearly. Especially for the tail servo where it would not move at all then suddenly jump way past the point I wanted. I thought centering the servos on TX would be OK too, but I decided to just set the sub-trims manually on the unit and it worked just fine. In any case, after centering all servos as perfectly as I can and leveling the swash, when I connect with the software, the monitor tab in the setup menu doesn’t show zeros and they are all off by +/- 3! And collective pitch by a lot more (12~14). What is that based on? When I follow item 3 of the instructions on that page to make them zero and “center” to the software’s liking, neither the servo arms are centered, nor the swash level anymore.

Using reset button in the servo trim tab makes only ch.1 through ch.3 zero on that tab, but tail setup tab has no reset. Plus, reset actually changes my mechanical setup and not just zeroing the values in the software. After all this, still monitor tab has other ideas about what is zero and what is not.

1. How can I connect and only bring up the setup that is already on the unit without having the software change anything and have it accept all centered and all zero starting point the way I have it?

2. How can I save the setup exactly the way it already is on the unit? And how can I recall or reload it later.
You need to set the tail with the gyro in rate mode (I think) as in heading hold mode, it will usually go to one side or the other once you move the stick.
I wouldn't worry about the monitor tab too much, I think it has been established it's not that important. You can in theory ignore setting the zero points on the monitor page.

To answer your questions.

Just start the software and press the connect button to connect to the gyro. Once it connects, all the settings throughout the software at this point are the settings presently in the gyro.
At this point if you want a snapshot of the gyro settings, select File, Save Config File. This will be an exact copy of what is in the gyro.

You can then change the settings to other something else. As you change the settings, since you are connected to the gyro, the changes will be save to the gyro immediately.

If later you want to go back to the settings that you saved.

a) Start the software
b) Press connect and wait for the gyro to connect
c) Load the config file you want to put into the gyro (File, Open Config File)
d) Transmit the file (Force Update or File, Transmit Config File)

Done. But make sure you do it in the order listed above.

If you want to reset the tail servo trim, just put the servo trim back to zero on the tail setup tab in the setup window.
The reset button on the servo trim just sets the swash servos back to zero. Nothing special really, just a convenience to set ch1, ch2 and ch3 back to zero.

Hope this helps.
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 01:43 AM
Team Mulikow 3D
Oxfordshire, UK
Joined Jan 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asasan View Post
I had no issues setting up Tarot ZYX manually and the heli behaved just fine. Then I bought the USB dongle and tried using Tarot software which didn’t work so I got here. Downloaded this software and it connected but I have issues. Since seventeen million people are using this software and happy with it, I am sure my frustration is due to my ignorance. Could someone please help me see what I am missing?

The sub-trims in the software didn’t quite work for me because it would not move the horn linearly. Especially for the tail servo where it would not move at all then suddenly jump way past the point I wanted. I thought centering the servos on TX would be OK too, but I decided to just set the sub-trims manually on the unit and it worked just fine. In any case, after centering all servos as perfectly as I can and leveling the swash, when I connect with the software, the monitor tab in the setup menu doesn’t show zeros and they are all off by +/- 3! And collective pitch by a lot more (12~14). What is that based on? When I follow item 3 of the instructions on that page to make them zero and “center” to the software’s liking, neither the servo arms are centered, nor the swash level anymore.

Using reset button in the servo trim tab makes only ch.1 through ch.3 zero on that tab, but tail setup tab has no reset. Plus, reset actually changes my mechanical setup and not just zeroing the values in the software. After all this, still monitor tab has other ideas about what is zero and what is not.

1. How can I connect and only bring up the setup that is already on the unit without having the software change anything and have it accept all centered and all zero starting point the way I have it?

2. How can I save the setup exactly the way it already is on the unit? And how can I recall or reload it later.
Asasan,

Sorry to hear that you are having issues still, part of the problem is that you are still trying to do things as you would in the FB world. Setting the sub-trims and ATV in the Monitor menu is not to trim the swash - it is to get the Tx and FBL unit in agreement about where stick-centre is. So by going into monitor and setting the zero and +/-100 the FBL unit will see "zero stick" when you have your sticks in the middle - you then use the FBL unit sub-trims to centre the swash servos.

1. If you are running the software, if you just connect the dongle to the FBL unit and connect the s/ware, it will show you your current settings.
2. you want to save the setting, go to top left click on "File" and then "Save Config Fie"

Cheers,
Mike
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 01:44 AM
Team Mulikow 3D
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Beaten to it by the expert
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 02:15 AM
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New Zealand, Taranaki, New Plymouth
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Originally Posted by MikeHRC View Post
Beaten to it by the expert
Better two answers than none.
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 09:58 AM
just gotta mess with it!
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North West Louisiana
Joined Nov 2009
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Descriptive text?

I like your explanation of setting the TX sub-trims and ATV's, Mike.

It would probably be helpful for first-time users if there was a clearly written Quick Start guide, and then an extended, more comprehensive guide. Would it be easily possible to add those to the software - and could you squeeze in some text into the servo trim page?

Incidentally, in the "Swash Travel" page, the descriptive text suggests that you check for binding - though it doesn't mention doing so with simultaneous full cyclic and collective stick deflections.

With CCPM systems, there are two conditions to look out for - firstly binding, which I always check for by rotating the head clockwise by hand. You can then feel resistance at the binding points, whereas sometimes it's easy to miss seeing things actually coming into contact.

Secondly, and especially when you're using an FBL head with long arms, you might run out of servo travel. This won't cause binding, but won't be good for the servos and will cause cyclic interactions.

Now maybe the controller will never move the swash to the positions you can achieve on the bench, and I'm possibly locked into an FB mindset. Can anyone confirm this one way or another? (i.e. if the controller can move the swash to the extreme positions possible on the bench)
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 06:50 PM
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United States, CA, Berkeley
Joined Jul 2011
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Parkinson’s disease

Thank you John and Mike.

I have another issue that may not be even be relevant to gyro settings and this thread, but I need to make sure before I throw the heli and myself out of the window.

Problem: There is a whole lota shakin’ goin’ on!

All servo and swash settings and good, and all zero and max collective and cyclic are good. The gears are not wobbly and I put in a new main shaft and a new feathering shaft. No play in the shaft and no slop in the head. New set of bearings for the shaft is all that’s left for me to try. Yet as soon as I spool up, the heli manifests symptoms of pretty advanced Parkinson’s disease!

Update:
The issue was the Tarot head itself. The ZYX unit like the other equivalents is a marvel, but the metal head is soft and deforms easily, causing major head vibration that is not obvious at first but gets magnified with blades.

When I asked the following question, I was thinking in the lines of high gyro gain causing the tail wag while hovering without rudder input.

Are there any settings/gains I may have set to high (screwed up) that could cause this vibration even with no cyclic input and before it even lifts off the ground?

It turned out to be FBL head issue anyway.
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Last edited by asasan; Feb 17, 2012 at 10:27 PM. Reason: problem solved.
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 07:21 PM
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One quick question. Do you need to hook battery to both the Rx and 3x-1000 or just to the Rx?

thanks
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JamesBC View Post
One quick question. Do you need to hook battery to both the Rx and 3x-1000 or just to the Rx?

thanks
Just the Rx.
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Old Feb 12, 2012, 08:42 PM
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United States, NY, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asasan View Post
Thank you John and Mike.

I have another issue that may not be even be relevant to gyro settings and this thread, but I need to make sure before I throw the heli and myself out of the window.

Problem: There is a whole lota shakin’ goin’ on!

All servo and swash settings and good, and all zero and max collective and cyclic are good. The gears are not wobbly and I put in a new main shaft and a new feathering shaft. No play in the shaft and no slop in the head. New set of bearings for the shaft is all that’s left for me to try. Yet as soon as I spool up, the heli manifests symptoms of pretty advanced Parkinson’s disease!

Are there and settings and gains I may have screwed up that could cause this even with no cyclic input and before it even lifts off the ground?
Lower the total pitch and roll gain to 20% to start.
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 01:21 AM
Team Mulikow 3D
Oxfordshire, UK
Joined Jan 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asasan View Post
Thank you John and Mike.

I have another issue that may not be even be relevant to gyro settings and this thread, but I need to make sure before I throw the heli and myself out of the window.

Problem: There is a whole lota shakin’ goin’ on!

All servo and swash settings and good, and all zero and max collective and cyclic are good. The gears are not wobbly and I put in a new main shaft and a new feathering shaft. No play in the shaft and no slop in the head. New set of bearings for the shaft is all that’s left for me to try. Yet as soon as I spool up, the heli manifests symptoms of pretty advanced Parkinson’s disease!

Are there and settings and gains I may have screwed up that could cause this even with no cyclic input and before it even lifts off the ground?
Check the tail shaft etc. as well, but vibes will cause these units big challenges
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 05:45 AM
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I need a bit of help, Got everything set up quite nicely but can't get good roll range without cranking the gain up too much (extreme 3d) with roll gain = 75, agil=60, pitch gain = 90, agil=60. Pitch semms to be ok as I can tilt back anf forth quite fast. But roll is another story, if I set the gain low say 60, I can reduce the roll shakes but very limited roll. What other parameters can I change to make it roll faster without shaking.Thanks in advance.

FYI, I am using the original HK450Pro head but with the Flybar & the cage removed. This means the flybar arm contols are still being used. Ie: the swash travel related to the blade's pitch is identical for both flybared and flybarless version. Could this be the problem?
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Last edited by ptern; Feb 13, 2012 at 06:13 AM. Reason: My little boy did the multicons when I went out
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 08:18 AM
just gotta mess with it!
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North West Louisiana
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptern View Post

I need a bit of help, Got everything set up quite nicely but can't get good roll range without cranking the gain up too much (extreme 3d) with roll gain = 75, agil=60, pitch gain = 90, agil=60. Pitch semms to be ok as I can tilt back anf forth quite fast. But roll is another story, if I set the gain low say 60, I can reduce the roll shakes but very limited roll. What other parameters can I change to make it roll faster without shaking.Thanks in advance.

FYI, I am using the original HK450Pro head but with the Flybar & the cage removed. This means the flybar arm contols are still being used. Ie: the swash travel related to the blade's pitch is identical for both flybared and flybarless version. Could this be the problem?
I can see from your smilies that you're feeling very emotional about this issue!

I find that pitch rate is faster than roll rate on my own 450, and consequently use about 6.5 degrees of elevator cyclic compared with about 8 degrees of aileron. Intuitively, you might think that the heli would have less roll inertia than pitch inertia, but maybe it boils down to collective management in a roll - and mine is as yet by no means perfect.

I think there's a good chance the heli would fly better with a proper FBL head - and most of them, especially ones such as the RJX style one from HK, enable you to mount the head lower, which is bound to improve roll and pitch rate. For the small cost of an FBL head (around $15 for the HK one) I think it would make sense for you to try one. The Tarot head is also pretty good.

I've found that the main blades can make a big difference to pitch and roll rates. I prefer the align 325 - style blades, which have a fairly thin airfoil section, concave towards the trailing edge, and I use the cheap "Pro 3D" ones.

As a matter of interest, how much collective and cyclic pitch do you have - and what collective, elevator and aileron ranges are you using in the controller to achieve those? (presuming your TX ATV's are around 100)
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 10:43 AM
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United States, VA, Leesburg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asasan View Post
Thank you John and Mike.

I have another issue that may not be even be relevant to gyro settings and this thread, but I need to make sure before I throw the heli and myself out of the window.

Problem: There is a whole lota shakin’ goin’ on!
You can try removing the main blades and slowly spinning it up to about half throttle. If you still have the shaking then remove the tail blades and do it again. That helped me track down a tail blade vibration.
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 11:35 AM
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United States, WA, Issaquah
Joined May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptern View Post

I need a bit of help, Got everything set up quite nicely but can't get good roll range without cranking the gain up too much (extreme 3d) with roll gain = 75, agil=60, pitch gain = 90, agil=60. Pitch semms to be ok as I can tilt back anf forth quite fast. But roll is another story, if I set the gain low say 60, I can reduce the roll shakes but very limited roll. What other parameters can I change to make it roll faster without shaking.Thanks in advance.

FYI, I am using the original HK450Pro head but with the Flybar & the cage removed. This means the flybar arm contols are still being used. Ie: the swash travel related to the blade's pitch is identical for both flybared and flybarless version. Could this be the problem?
Wow, those are pretty high gains. Perhaps tuning the PID settings would help: add more P and lower the I.

Strangely enough my 450 feels the same - faster flip rates on ele than ail. However, the 500 is backwards, ele is OK, but the ail roll is visibly higher. I guess each heli-gyro pairing has its unique quirks that need some tuning. I'm going to fiddle with the D/R on the Tx to get the same feeling on ele and ail rather than gyro tweaking. It's just so much easier and more predictable.
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