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Old Sep 17, 2012, 09:12 AM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
United States, IA, Rockwell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikebipes View Post
So Mini-IMAC would make a better pilot out of us????

Brian
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Originally Posted by fyrc22 View Post
It probably would!

Yes, just as pattern would, be it classic or modern. Any time you are "forced" to make a maneuver to a set of standards, IMO, your skills improve.

Ken
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 10:42 PM
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Would anyone be interested in this type of competition in Ohio. I would be willing to put on a contest. Maybe combine pattern or spa with mini-mac? Toby
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kenh3497 View Post
This is something I have never understood I have a CAP 232, the one in my avatar. It will do any of the maneuvers in the IMAC schedule.

In fact it is much more capable than I am. I am the one holding the plane back, not the other way around. I agree a larger plane is less affected by outside forces, like wind, but that has nothing to do with the capabilities of the airframe.

Ken

I always have a rough time explaining this. I by no means am trying to offend anyone but there is a difference between flying the sequence and flying it well enough to receive good scores. The advantage to the larger airplanes is power and lighter wing loadings. This means the maneuvers are flown larger and slower. Having that additional time removes a lot of pilot workload. It also makes the judges job easier too. I guess I'm still trying to justify the higher cost of the larger airplane. If you are serious about flying IMAC of any type it will require a good amount of practice. Say you are flying a .90 to 1.20 size airplane. How long will it take to burn a gallon of glow fuel? I'm thinking 6 to 8 flights @ 20.00 per gallon. The 30cc gasser will practically pay for it's self after a season of practice. Before making any decisions about what to fly I suggest you find some guys flying IMAC and attend some practice sessions.
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Old Sep 25, 2012, 09:57 AM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
United States, IA, Rockwell
Joined Jul 2011
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[QUOTE=exf3bguy;22826520 Say you are flying a .90 to 1.20 size airplane. How long will it take to burn a gallon of glow fuel? I'm thinking 6 to 8 flights @ 20.00 per gallon. .[/QUOTE]


FWIW I'm flying a 90 4C, the plane in my avatar. 8 ounce tank = 16 flights per gallon. I guess I'm lucky as I pay about $15 a gallon for fuel, so about a $1 per flight.

Most guys will have a 12 or 14 ounce tank but I'll bet they don't fly it dry every time. My 8 ounce tank will let me fly the sequence.

I think the point of the OP is trying to make is to fly IMAC STYLE with a smaller plane. Less expense up front. If that person wants to carry on up through the ranks with the smaller plane and wants the challenge of the larger airframe they are free to do so. Brian, correct me if I'm wrong here!

One mans opinion (mine)..... The smaller airframe, less up front expense and less intimidation, should urge more to joins the ranks of aerobatic competition. In my vision I see Mini IMAC as a stepping stone. Call it the minor league if you will... With the proliferation of nice arf's and kits of the modern aerobatic planes available, Mini IMAC should flourish.

Ken
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Old Sep 25, 2012, 10:44 AM
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United States, MN, Brooklyn Center
Joined May 2009
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I think the point of the OP is trying to make is to fly IMAC STYLE with a smaller plane. Less expense up front. If that person wants to carry on up through the ranks with the smaller plane and wants the challenge of the larger airframe they are free to do so. Brian, correct me if I'm wrong here!
I admit, there is some thinking through to be done here... No, we wouldn't have to perform every maneuver as our larger brothers in the lower classes... but at the highest class, I think it ought to really be considered. At least tried.

I don't have to have it my way though. This is something we could decide before anything starts. There are good points being made here. I would like to see it work.

Ken- I think you understand it. I can still be happy without an EXACT copy of our larger brothers. I just hope we wouldn't get too far away from that. And 30 to 50cc airplanes would still keep costs down for the highest classes. I would suggest Mini IMAC be designed with the idea of a progression to these larger air frames in mind, but never required. If a person has the courage to fly smaller aircraft at the highest levels, they ought to be rewarded for that too.

I think the challenges will just make us stronger- in the end result.

Opinions?

Brian
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Old Sep 25, 2012, 10:48 AM
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United States, MN, Brooklyn Center
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Originally Posted by tobytorkn View Post
Would anyone be interested in this type of competition in Ohio. I would be willing to put on a contest. Maybe combine pattern or spa with mini-mac? Toby
Hello Toby.

May I suggest you take this idea to your local club, that you send invites to neighboring clubs within a couple hundred miles of you, have a date set, a format set, a time frame established, and a program ready to go?

You may get more response.

Good luck! I hope to see this tried and take off.

Brian
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Old Sep 25, 2012, 08:42 PM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
United States, IA, Rockwell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikebipes View Post
I admit, there is some thinking through to be done here... No, we wouldn't have to perform every maneuver as our larger brothers in the lower classes... but at the highest class, I think it ought to really be considered. At least tried.

I don't have to have it my way though. This is something we could decide before anything starts. There are good points being made here. I would like to see it work.

Ken- I think you understand it. I can still be happy without an EXACT copy of our larger brothers. I just hope we wouldn't get too far away from that. And 30 to 50cc airplanes would still keep costs down for the highest classes. I would suggest Mini IMAC be designed with the idea of a progression to these larger air frames in mind, but never required. If a person has the courage to fly smaller aircraft at the highest levels, they ought to be rewarded for that too.

I think the challenges will just make us stronger- in the end result.

Opinions?

Brian
Brian, I think we are on the same page. We might have a word misspelled here and there but we are both pulling on the same end of the rope

Like I said, with the proliferation of scale aerobatic airframes in the .40 to 50cc size, there should be something to fit anybodies budget.

A thought...

For basic/beginner Mini-Mac have a non turn around pattern similar to classic pattern but fly only one sequence. This will get the new guys a chance to gather their wits between maneuvers. Basic/beginner will be a "fly what ya brung" so any airframe can compete, be it flat bottom trainer or a full blown aerobatic airframe. The other higher classes ( scalish airframe required) will more or less fly the same sequences as IMAC. IMAC will fly two sequences in the same flight. You just repeat the same maneuvers the second time around.

Visit here http://www.mini-iac.com/Training/tabid/121/Default.aspx This is the training section with judging and videos of what the sequences look like for each level of competition.

I'm just throwing this out there to stir the pot a bit. Everybody stick their spoon in and do some stirring also.

Ken
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Old Sep 26, 2012, 02:07 PM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
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FWIW a thread from RCU about mini imac. Like most threads it gets a little off track but some good points are made.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_64..._1/key_/tm.htm

A search on RCU turned up quite a few mini imac threads. I've read a couple. Good for research. What has been discussed here seems in line what was discussed way back in "03". Some key points was limiting size by prop diameter, engine size and wingspan. All have some merit. I like Brian's idea of a 50cc limit. That would take somebody right up to basic or sportsman in IMAC if they chose to progress to that point.

I think "Mini Mac" at a club/regional level is a very viable entity as was suggested in one of the threads. This would open up a lot of fields to small for 35% to 40% planes.

Ken
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 12:25 AM
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To be honest in 13 years of flying IMAC, I have yet to see a single airplane entered into Mini-IMAC. I like the concept and I think that with the economy the way it is right now that the timing is right. A smaller airplane is less expensive not to mention the gas expense getting to and from contests would be less with a smaller vehicle. I think it failed the first time around because the airplanes allowed were just too small. Thats why I am really pushing the 30cc and in fact maybe the upper size limit should be 30cc. For a glow motor that would be a Saito 1.80. The next thing to think about is the format. You would have to fly the same sequences as everyone else. IMAC already has 5 classes. Even if you limited MINI-IMAC to basic, sportsman and intermidiate, you now have 8 classes. Thats just too much, we have issues getting qualified judges as it is. It would be best if during the sportsman rounds if all the sportsman pilots all flew the same sequence. Now dropping the unknown sequence on Sunday for Mini-IMAC would be an option but that means that group of guys get one less flight over the weekend. All things to think about.

I'll close with a question. The guys that want to fly the smaller airplanes, what prevented you from entering a contest this past season? Any airplane is allowed in basic and any decent .60 size sport pattern/scale aerobatic airplane is capable of doing that sequence well. point is you don't need to have 35%-40% airplane to be competitive with the current format. The last 2 contests I flew was with a 50cc airplane in unlimited. One was a 3rd place finish.
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 02:06 AM
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United States, MN, Brooklyn Center
Joined May 2009
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Quote:
I'll close with a question. The guys that want to fly the smaller airplanes, what prevented you from entering a contest this past season? Any airplane is allowed in basic and any decent .60 size sport pattern/scale aerobatic airplane is capable of doing that sequence well. point is you don't need to have 35%-40% airplane to be competitive with the current format.
With all sincerity, and every IMAC pilot I have spoken to tells me this... Yes you can fly a smaller plane. You will also be wasting everyone else's time because you will never score well, there is no interest in your equipment, your airplane will never present itself like the larger 150cc + planes do.

If you want to be competitive, you have to spend anywhere from $4-$8000 on an airplane.

I don't have it. I can't do it. I wouldn't want to with my income anyhow.

Mini-IMAC makes competing more realistic to the world I live in. The glow vs gas argument is a non issue in terms of cost. Glow becomes far more affordable.

This is why I am wrapped up in classic pattern for the time being. It is actually attainable, and most importantly, FUN!


With that said... Do not construe that to mean I am against IMAC as it is. It is cool and if you can do it that is great! I would never want to stop it. If I could do it, I would!

Brian
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 09:08 AM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
United States, IA, Rockwell
Joined Jul 2011
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Originally Posted by exf3bguy View Post

I'll close with a question. The guys that want to fly the smaller airplanes, what prevented you from entering a contest this past season? Any airplane is allowed in basic and any decent .60 size sport pattern/scale aerobatic airplane is capable of doing that sequence well. point is you don't need to have 35%-40% airplane to be competitive with the current format. The last 2 contests I flew was with a 50cc airplane in unlimited. One was a 3rd place finish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikebipes View Post
With all sincerity, and every IMAC pilot I have spoken to tells me this... Yes you can fly a smaller plane. You will also be wasting everyone else's time because you will never score well, there is no interest in your equipment, your airplane will never present itself like the larger 150cc + planes do.

If you want to be competitive, you have to spend anywhere from $4-$8000 on an airplane.

I don't have it. I can't do it. I wouldn't want to with my income anyhow.

Mini-IMAC makes competing more realistic to the world I live in. The glow vs gas argument is a non issue in terms of cost. Glow becomes far more affordable.

This is why I am wrapped up in classic pattern for the time being. It is actually attainable, and most importantly, FUN!


With that said... Do not construe that to mean I am against IMAC as it is. It is cool and if you can do it that is great! I would never want to stop it. If I could do it, I would!

Brian

What is said above and driving distance is great 300 to 400 miles for me. Most IMAC contests, from what I understand, are two day contests with practice on Friday. So I need to take off work, drive, motel, food etc. Even if I could afford the plane, the other costs are too great, not to mention the need for a dedicated plane hauler; trailer or large vehicle. Even more expense......

Mini IMAC up to say 50cc would be within reach of most people. A contest could be held at most if not all club fields with the smaller planes. Noise should not be a problem. One day contests could be a reality, there could be more of them if the attendance warrants it. I envision Mini-IMAC to be a completely separate event from IMAC. Use many of the same rules, sequences and such. Mini could be a stepping stone to IMAC if one desires to move up.

I looked around yesterday and last night a bit, but couldn't find much on Mini-IMAC. Was Mini ever a SIG with the AMA? Does anybody have any links to contest rules and such?

Ken

EDIT:
After thinking about it for a bit maybe 30cc would be a better upper limit????? Lots to think about here!
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikebipes View Post
With all sincerity, and every IMAC pilot I have spoken to tells me this... Yes you can fly a smaller plane. You will also be wasting everyone else's time because you will never score well, there is no interest in your equipment, your airplane will never present itself like the larger 150cc + planes do.

If you want to be competitive, you have to spend anywhere from $4-$8000 on an airplane.

I don't have it. I can't do it. I wouldn't want to with my income anyhow.

Mini-IMAC makes competing more realistic to the world I live in. The glow vs gas argument is a non issue in terms of cost. Glow becomes far more affordable.

This is why I am wrapped up in classic pattern for the time being. It is actually attainable, and most importantly, FUN!


With that said... Do not construe that to mean I am against IMAC as it is. It is cool and if you can do it that is great! I would never want to stop it. If I could do it, I would!

Brian
Brian, I'm at a loss here. I have never seen that type of attitude towards small airplanes here in the southwest region. IMO a person with that type of mindset does not belong in a judges chair EVER. Granted there is some truth a few layers down. In Advanced and Unlimited the sequences are complex enough that a 50cc airplane will not present as well as a 35% or 40% airplane. It will have to fly a smaller footprint and will appear to be flown faster. Flying something even smaller would be worse. As far as anyone feeling you are wasting their time that is just BS. It's no wonder why you have stayed away from a contest.

I'm thinking that adding Mini to the existing format in basic, sportsman and intermediate and allowing up to 30cc would be a great start. The next would be to decide to include unknowns or not. Then if one wishes he could jump in with the big boys or stay put.
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Brian, I'm at a loss here. I have never seen that type of attitude towards small airplanes here in the southwest region
This seems to be the case with pattern to a large extent as well. Which is why I am struggling to get things moving in my area regarding Classic Pattern.

I have noticed certain regions of the states that excell in pattern do very well with IMAC as well. Here in the upper mid-west, as well as my experience in Colorado in the mid 90's thru 2002, has been a struggle. But I am working on that. (It doesn't help when you plan for a busy flying year and then other prioritys seem to stop you either! It has not been a great flying year for me.)

I hope Mini IMAC would be a draw for both IMAC flying as well as Classic Pattern.

Brian
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 11:43 AM
The Prez....... again
kenh3497's Avatar
United States, IA, Rockwell
Joined Jul 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikebipes View Post
This seems to be the case with pattern to a large extent as well. Which is why I am struggling to get things moving in my area regarding Classic Pattern.

I have noticed certain regions of the states that excell in pattern do very well with IMAC as well. Here in the upper mid-west, as well as my experience in Colorado in the mid 90's thru 2002, has been a struggle. But I am working on that. (It doesn't help when you plan for a busy flying year and then other prioritys seem to stop you either! It has not been a great flying year for me.)

I hope Mini IMAC would be a draw for both IMAC flying as well as Classic Pattern.

Brian
It's been that way as far back as I can remember. I started the hobby back in "75" and I don't remember any type of aerobatic contest that has been "local" ever. I know there is something down around Omaha, NE but that is all i can think of, off the top of my head.





Ken
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 12:09 PM
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IMAC has evolved just as other competititions which preceeded it.
The momentum fro mTOC stuff carried it to a point where it is really just an event fo 150 class models- Tho others may apply - they won't do well except as compared to others flying smaller stuff.
Just as in drag racing - the class thing - which is next- will dilute interest but does make competition based on similar craft possible.
a Mini class simply MUST have limits both in sizes - and weights and power
from a practical standpoint it is tough to get needed participants even lowering the cost of equipment .
The cost of travel is also a real consideration today so participation is further limited In our area you can buy used -good 150cc models for peanuts.
guess why.
I really hope someone is successful in setting up local events which appeal to the broader audience of those flying small models
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