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Old Sep 03, 2012, 05:33 PM
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I got an Ober and Calgary is not that far from BC ;-) and I'm interested to participate to the adventure of a World ChampionShip

Thierry
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tiju000 View Post
I got an Ober and Calgary is not that far from BC ;-) and I'm interested to participate to the adventure of a World ChampionShip

Thierry
IT would be cool to have you come out and fly man regardless of the launch system we use!
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kdt View Post
The winch setup at Phoenix worked well using F3b winches. I liked this format but the complexity is still a problem. Also, A Ford long shaft running 150m of mono will out launch an Ober. I feel matched winches would be needed for a Team Selects.
If the logistics worked I would not allow mixed equipment launches as your statement aboe is correct. I was suggesting all TD winches as they are generally plentiful. I know it is possible that someone brings a honking TD winch - you might just try to level this by requiring a launch test before the event. Put in a how-high and do a few launches - and adjust the turnaround to get +/- 50 feet.

While batteries might be an issue - we never regulate them at any of our events and we don't see a measurable difference. Technique is way more of a factor. In any event you could do like F3B TS events and supply rental batteries for the competition. That is also what we did for our TS event in Florida.

It just feels to me that you need an event that helps minimize the pilot logistics but still recognizes skills that are important to the J event. Maybe the SASS guys would be willing to rent their winches for a reasonable price for the event. perhaps the same as what it might cost to pay towers for the event you could rent their matched winches. They are relatively close so getting them there might not be a logistical issue. Heck - if we were not so far my club would probably consider a loan for an event.

I think you want to be creative yet true as possible to the game.
Good Luck with what ever you decide.
Jim
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jimsoars View Post
If the logistics worked I would not allow mixed equipment launches as your statement aboe is correct. I was suggesting all TD winches as they are generally plentiful. I know it is possible that someone brings a honking TD winch - you might just try to level this by requiring a launch test before the event. Put in a how-high and do a few launches - and adjust the turnaround to get +/- 50 feet.

While batteries might be an issue - we never regulate them at any of our events and we don't see a measurable difference. Technique is way more of a factor. In any event you could do like F3B TS events and supply rental batteries for the competition. That is also what we did for our TS event in Florida.

It just feels to me that you need an event that helps minimize the pilot logistics but still recognizes skills that are important to the J event. Maybe the SASS guys would be willing to rent their winches for a reasonable price for the event. perhaps the same as what it might cost to pay towers for the event you could rent their matched winches. They are relatively close so getting them there might not be a logistical issue. Heck - if we were not so far my club would probably consider a loan for an event.

I think you want to be creative yet true as possible to the game.
Good Luck with what ever you decide.
Jim
Good points regarding TD OR F3B winches - I agree its either one or the other.

The SASS idea is interesting...I tried that last year and it did not seem to go over well for some reason.
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Old Sep 04, 2012, 12:17 PM
kdt
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Calgary to BC

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Originally Posted by tiju000 View Post
I got an Ober and Calgary is not that far from BC ;-) and I'm interested to participate to the adventure of a World ChampionShip

Thierry
It would be great to have you out here Thierry. You are welcome any time!
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Old Sep 04, 2012, 12:57 PM
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On the second topic - I dont understand - I think guys are going to fly what will works for the conditions regardless of the launch within reason- if its windy and you need to penetrate - you fly heavy - the speed on launch factor is out the window just like SA during the 10 m/sec rounds - no one cared how long you were on tow for - we just wanted to get back home. Granted if we have really LOW powered launches with a bungee the lighter planes are going to move faster...but I dont think anyone is going to win based on this alone especially if the bungee is on the stronger side.

In response to lite planes - thats why I want to make sure the solution is powerful enough for ALL planes even the 77 oz varieties that could show up - for example my X2 3.5 ballasted with 21 oz outlaunches my 56 oz 3.8 in pure zoom and alt - - it takes more time but even the system I have now will afford 150 meters and we have not really even started testing. lite planes are always going to have an advantage in some scenarios but I dont see a slanted relationship to the LZ - I mean if you can nail the spot but you cant make your time - its not going to matter - a low launch is not going to make the 100 point landing worth any more unless no one else makes a landing...now an uber high launch across the whole field could in effect make it a landing contest...but I dont anticipate that.

I have seen 3 team selects so far - lite planes were a major factor because the launch power was inconsistent - a lite plane was able to do more with less - I d like to get away from that with a more level approach of adequate power - if the power is there to launch everyone to 200 meters and the main difference is time on line - well thats the essence of J again and its what we will be facing in the WC so thats fine. Or am I misunderstanding you ?
It is not the windy conditions I am worried about. It is the light conditions that the light models have the big advantage. 200m is not attainable with a medium bungee even with a light model unless considerable time is spent on line. With a heavy model the medium bungee becomes a big handicap. I agree that a light model can work with less. A heavy model working with less is at a greater disadvantage. It is primarily the new flyers that do not have state of the art light models I am concerned about. The main idea with this is to simplify the event so it will attract new flyers and to level the playing field is it not? .

A medium bungee format is a great idea and will encourage many more pilots to try a J style competition. I'm looking forward to getting going with it. My only concern is adopting this for a Team Select.before we have a good handle on it. My feeling is a bigger launch tension is needed in light air especially.

Maybe I should be testing rather than writting
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Old Sep 04, 2012, 06:28 PM
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"It is not the windy conditions I am worried about. It is the light conditions that the light models have the big advantage. 200m is not attainable with a medium bungee even with a light model unless considerable time is spent on line. With a heavy model the medium bungee becomes a big handicap. "


My assumption is that any system would have to launch something in the heavy range say 77-80 oz into 150-200 meters. The difference between my Sl and ballasted setup 56 vs 77 was that I spent a second on the line more with the heavy model and actually out zoomed my lite model. I'm positive that 200 meters is easily achievable if 150 takes 3.5 seconds. If the bungees can't produce that in 4-6 seconds then I'd have cause for concern but I have used a bungee to launch well beyond d 250 so all we need is a little more snap so we don't spend 10-12 seconds like a kite.

To me the larger challenge is getting guys like Wurtz and Borst who might circle tow in the wind, stay on tow for 25 seconds and launch to 350 meters

I've been that guy that shows up with the 77 oz plane and had the unfortunate slack 2 man tows vs other pilots who were flying lite models....I got crushed because of it so I'm on your side here.

If we can find something that launches most models to reasonable heights at a tension between say 45-60 lbs we are good. There will be variations between lite and heavy models but that's not going to win the event by itself.

The trade off in using random towers is so much more problematic IMHO. Given the options I would like to explore this bungee experiment, see what we learn and if we can't find a great launch solution then I'm more inclined to use winches which just opens a totally different set of problems, power is not one of them though.
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Old Sep 04, 2012, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by webbsolution View Post
"It is not the windy conditions I am worried about. It is the light conditions that the light models have the big advantage. 200m is not attainable with a medium bungee even with a light model unless considerable time is spent on line. With a heavy model the medium bungee becomes a big handicap. "


My assumption is that any system would have to launch something in the heavy range say 77-80 oz into 150-200 meters. The difference between my Sl and ballasted setup 56 vs 77 was that I spent a second on the line more with the heavy model and actually out zoomed my lite model. I'm positive that 200 meters is easily achievable if 150 takes 3.5 seconds. If the bungees can't produce that in 4-6 seconds then I'd have cause for concern but I have used a bungee to launch well beyond d 250 so all we need is a little more snap so we don't spend 10-12 seconds like a kite.

To me the larger challenge is getting guys like Wurtz and Borst who might circle tow in the wind, stay on tow for 25 seconds and launch to 350 meters

I've been that guy that shows up with the 77 oz plane and had the unfortunate slack 2 man tows vs other pilots who were flying lite models....I got crushed because of it so I'm on your side here.

If we can find something that launches most models to reasonable heights at a tension between say 45-60 lbs we are good. There will be variations between lite and heavy models but that's not going to win the event by itself.

The trade off in using random towers is so much more problematic IMHO. Given the options I would like to explore this bungee experiment, see what we learn and if we can't find a great launch solution then I'm more inclined to use winches which just opens a totally different set of problems, power is not one of them though.
Notice I edited my previous post after your post... Did not see your reply. Sometimes takes me a while to get the ideas down right.

I think we are on the same wave length. Just a matter of trying it and seeing how it works. I just do not want to rush into a Team Selects with this before we have a good handle on it. Every change we make will have results we cannot anticipate.
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Old Sep 04, 2012, 11:59 PM
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Notice I edited my previous post after your post... Did not see your reply. Sometimes takes me a while to get the ideas down right.

I think we are on the same wave length. Just a matter of trying it and seeing how it works. I just do not want to rush into a Team Selects with this before we have a good handle on it. Every change we make will have results we cannot anticipate.
Agreed, I think we could easily get a great launch setup, do an event and evaluate. We can always propose both options on a ts and pull the trigger on bungees or bring your own TD or f3b winch etc once an evaluation is done.
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Old Sep 06, 2012, 08:47 PM
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3.5 m mega bungee test

Today was perfect for my first try with the single 3.5 m bungee on its own. I still used the full 140 m of mono. The wind was about 8 km at 11:00 am and became very variable as the thermal activity increased as the afternoon progressed. I found it was much easier to tension the single 3.5. it seemed I could walk back almost as far as I could with the 2x 3.5 in series but I would just hit a wall and could not pull any further. No idea of the tension as I did not have Davids fish scale. The results were higher launch in less time. Not suprised It was a blast to try and vector into the thermals. I made it a point not to try and time my release for the most opportune moment but to use the height i got to point in the right direction. Most launches were between 1 to 2 seconds. The most fun zooming downwind to awaiting thermals. I was able to spec out to the limit of my vision then blast back to pick up the next cycle so my arm had time to recover between launches.

Joe, can you tell me what the correlation is between a medium and a mega bungee with the same tension. Is it just speed or is there a greater efficiency with the mega?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe W View Post
I suspect that the light bulb may be glowing now...

The interesting aspect to the bungee tension measurement is that it appears to be more difficult to pull back the bungee so as to mark the 90 lb tension point, than it is to pull it back with the plane hooked up to the bungee. I do not know why this is true! Possibly it is true because I am so used to pulling tension via holding onto a fuselage.

One very important caution. It is "easy" to pull back tension when the winds are not strong. When the winds are strong, there are some big risks with pulling significant tension.

An interesting thing for the analytical folk to consider/calculate. In zero wind, a quick launch (zoom from the throw) will provide about 100m of launch altitude with my bungee with my 4m Maxa (3.5m rubber, 40 kg of initial tension). How much of the initial bungee stretch is translated into altitude?
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 01:51 AM
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Still Pondering

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Originally Posted by Joe W View Post
I suspect that the light bulb may be glowing now...

An interesting thing for the analytical folk to consider/calculate. In zero wind, a quick launch (zoom from the throw) will provide about 100m of launch altitude with my bungee with my 4m Maxa (3.5m rubber, 40 kg of initial tension). How much of the initial bungee stretch is translated into altitude?
Technique seems to be a very big factor. In France you did very fast zoom launches in reflex with a two man tow that resulted in over 100 meters. Are you using a similar technique with the mega bungee? Some pilots I've seen are getting a lower but faster launch by doing a quick deliberate pop off. This would not be very efficient use of the bungee stretch. Very often you hear the chute pop with the left over tension not utilized by the model on launch. It seems a bit daunting to measure this with so many variables.

What are your ideas on technique in various wind conditions to maximize the height time relationship? How do you measure this? How much does your technique differ with a 2 man tow over a mega bungee for a short tow?

The next WC is 2 years away. I'm sure most people will foget your reply
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 03:30 AM
launch low, fly high
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Keith,

So many questions! I'll try and answer some of these, but it will have to wait a few days. We are having our f3k team selection event this weekend and I have a few things to do tonight before the comp starts in the morning.
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 10:19 AM
kdt
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Thanks Joe

You let the Jeanie out of the bottle

Good luck with your F3K selection!

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Keith,

So many questions! I'll try and answer some of these, but it will have to wait a few days. We are having our f3k team selection event this weekend and I have a few things to do tonight before the comp starts in the morning.
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 01:13 PM
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Im still trying to wrap my head around a 90lb pull on a bungee.

Joe
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Old Sep 07, 2012, 01:44 PM
kdt
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90 lbs

This is a lot of stored energy. I am very curious to see how much more I have been able to pull with the short 3.5m bungee. I'm going out again today to try it with 65m of mono. I'm sure I'm still a long way from 90lbs but it is getting better.

Lots to learn

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Originally Posted by J. Wydronek View Post
Im still trying to wrap my head around a 90lb pull on a bungee.

Joe
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