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Old Feb 01, 2013, 12:22 PM
Circles in Lift
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Redmond, Washington, USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Wow, that's pretty stunning, coming from an American. The very concept turns our Bill of Rights on its head. It's the argument you hear often from our European friends here on LTUP. They argue the difference is irrelevant.

If things change in the US to the point where our concept of rights is that they are granted by the government rather than inherent human rights that a protected by the government, there is no longer a compelling reason to live here. We will have become just like every other social democracy and tinpot dictatorship where rights are granted and rescinded at the government's will.

It's frightening to see so many people publicly and proudly taking this position. It's something genuinely new in our civic discourse.

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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
Man does not have any rights at all... Man is an animal, just like the rest of nature.

Any so called rights, are taken by man... or given by government.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 12:27 PM
whiirrrrrr
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United States, TX, Houston
Joined Nov 2011
785 Posts
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
People born in Somalia do not have the same rights as we do.
Rights are given to the people by the government.
In our case, we are the government, and we give and take away rights, ourselves.
No, they have those, rights, but their government has TAKEN them away.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 12:31 PM
Build/Fly/Crash/Repeat
United States, HI, Kapalua
Joined Jan 2002
1,200 Posts
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Originally Posted by RCWorks View Post
That's you, that's not the rest of us.
You are hardly representative of anyone but yourself. You can only speak for you.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 12:34 PM
Figure Nine Champ
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North Texas
Joined Nov 2002
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Originally Posted by CoastalFlyer View Post
You are hardly representative of anyone but yourself. You can only speak for you.
That's Kenny, not the rest of us.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 03:30 PM
LcJ
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United States, LA, Monroe
Joined Mar 2003
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
Man does not have any rights at all... Man is an animal, just like the rest of nature.

Any so called rights, are taken by man... or given by government.
We have rights, but like salvation, we must accept and claim them.

Quote:
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
Then 56 men signed that document.

Once we quit claiming those rights we cease being what we are and eventually become slaves.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 03:33 PM
Registered User
Denver, CO
Joined Dec 2005
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You never know what rights you have, unless you use them.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 03:34 PM
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Houston Intercont, Texas, United States
Joined Jun 2001
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
God given rights, is a joke in my opinion.
Now I can understand why you are a liberal.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 03:38 PM
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United States, CO, Aurora
Joined Sep 2007
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Originally Posted by mikefast View Post
Now I can understand why you are a liberal.
But the thing is, does he understand? In spite of his self professed "genius IQ", I sincerely doubt it.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 04:05 PM
Circles in Lift
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Redmond, Washington, USA
Joined Oct 2004
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The idea that Kenny is expressing here is one of the key philosophical differences between American progressives and conservatives. It challenges the fundamental philosophical underpinning of the Bill of Rights. Once we lose that - mark my words - we have nothing left.

It's one thing to debate on a whole variety of issues facing the country. But once we start to dilute the Bill of Rights with the notion that those rights are granted by the government rather than God-given and thus unalienable, we are done. Really done.

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God given rights, is a joke in my opinion.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 04:07 PM
Circles in Lift
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Redmond, Washington, USA
Joined Oct 2004
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I've generally found that people who claim to possess a genius-leve IQ, don't.

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Originally Posted by n00b-E View Post
But the thing is, does he understand? In spite of his self professed "genius IQ", I sincerely doubt it.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 04:30 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
10,371 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LcJ View Post
We have rights, but like salvation, we must accept and claim them.



Then 56 men signed that document.

Once we quit claiming those rights we cease being what we are and eventually become slaves.
Those rights were claimed by the authority of men in the newly formed government.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 04:33 PM
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United States, CO, Aurora
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
Those rights were claimed by the authority of men.
No Kenny, those right were claimed to be protected from the authority of men. There's a difference, you'd do well to learn it.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 04:34 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
The idea that Kenny is expressing here is one of the key philosophical differences between American progressives and conservatives. It challenges the fundamental philosophical underpinning of the Bill of Rights. Once we lose that - mark my words - we have nothing left.

It's one thing to debate on a whole variety of issues facing the country. But once we start to dilute the Bill of Rights with the notion that those rights are granted by the government rather than God-given and thus unalienable, we are done. Really done.
I don't see how it dilutes the Bill of Rights.
The rights are claimed by the authority of men.
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 04:36 PM
Figure Nine Champ
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North Texas
Joined Nov 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
The rights are claimed by the authority of men.
No, they aren't
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Old Feb 01, 2013, 04:37 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
10,371 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b-E View Post
No Kenny, those right were claimed to be protected from the authority of men. There's a difference, you'd do well to learn it.
The document says it is claimed by the authority of men... as well it should be.
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