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Old Jan 25, 2005, 11:44 AM
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Zeroaltitude's Avatar
Orebro, Sweden
Joined Oct 2002
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Profile Zero for indoor combat.

Hi guys!
Ive just completed a profile Zero fighter, inspired by the threads of indoor combat with streamers.

First, Id like to say thank you to Ken Spencer (whoever you are) for drawing the "skin" for this plane. I found it on a link in a thread here, but as embarrassing as it is I have been unable to find the thread again, so if Mr. Spencer is not the original poster of this artwork Id also like to thank whoever posted these planes on the E-Zone. Ive used the design printed on ordinary printer/copyer paper (in several pieces due to size) and used heat activated glue to attach it to the foam with my covering iron.

The plane is of 82cm (32") wingspan, and wheighs 190gram (6,7oz) ready to fly. The motor is a CD-Rom conversion giving slightly better than 1:1 thrust to wheight ratio, and power comes from an old Kokam 1020mAh Lipo. Control is A/E/T. Adding rudder would be easy but to start with I think ailerons for turning will be enough. Ive designed it with a slightly undercambered wing. For the purposes of indoor combat Im uncertain whether a flat wing would have been better, but this is just an experiment with the intent of drawing interest from my fellow indoorpilots in rebro.

Ive not testflown the plane, and it is doubtful whether Ill be able to do so any sooner than our next indoorsession this weekend. I am very confident that it will fly. Only concern is whether it will be slow and manouverable enough to be useful indoors. Ill report back with the results once it has flown.

Anders O
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Old Jan 25, 2005, 07:41 PM
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Seattle
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Anders,

Do a search under "GymDandy indoor flyers." You'll find Ken's stuff.

Ron
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Old Jan 25, 2005, 07:50 PM
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Zeroaltitude's Avatar
Orebro, Sweden
Joined Oct 2002
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Thanks Ron!
It was embarassing borrowing someone elses work, and not being able to go back and find the thread so I could thank him. Ill have a look and post a thank you.

Anders O
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Old Jan 25, 2005, 08:59 PM
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Gainesville, Florida, United States
Joined Sep 2001
1,456 Posts
Nice looking plane. I did a profile Stuka in a similar manner (31" WS) but I did the fuselage Shockflyer-style. It flew OK with a CDROM motor, but not as maneuverable as I'd like (the linkage geometry on the ailerons was poor, so there was very little throw. It was a smooth flyer, though.)
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Old Jan 25, 2005, 09:13 PM
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Orebro, Sweden
Joined Oct 2002
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Thanks stjobs!

I moved the hingline further forward on the elevator/horisontal stabiliser to get more area for good authority, and continued the ailerons from the scale outlines all the way to the wingroot. Id say that Im somewhere in between a 3D plane and a scale model as far as controlsurfaces go. Throws seem pretty good too, but the proof is of corse in the flying.

This is a first attempt, and Im pretty sure it will fly, probably even fly well. The concern is whether it will be manouverable enough to fly indoors (indoor single basketcourt gym), while pulling loops, bunts and rolls (standard dogfight manouvres).
I expect to have to finetune this plane, or even redo it completely. But thats no problem. I made it to serve as a demo/proof of concept, and the materials cost next to nothing. If Im going to fly combat with it, I dont expect it to last long anyway!

The fuse has a 2mm CF rod running full length for stiffness, and the wings have a CF rod running to 5" from the wingtips. A Shockflyer style fuselage would add lift, and rigidity, and I thought about making it like that but I chose to take a shortcut.

Do you have any pics of your Stuka? Would love to see it!

Anders O
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Old Jan 25, 2005, 09:17 PM
dougmontgomery's Avatar
Glendale,Az.
Joined Oct 2004
3,529 Posts
Nice work, I sure get tired of blue, Looking at it not cutting it or designing with it. Show us more......D
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Old Jan 25, 2005, 09:31 PM
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Orebro, Sweden
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Thanks D!
I hear you. Im pretty sick of seeing the grey depron Und Nus and other depron planes. And dont get me wrong, theyre great designs many of them, and perform very well. Its just that they look so boring (the finish, not neccessarily the designs).
To tell you the truth, I wouldnt bother building ANY profile plane, if the purpose hadnt been indoor combat where I need something that is cheap and easy to put together. Now dont get me wrong, foam is a great material, its just a personal thing. Im more a scale kind of guy, and prefer balsa for my builds (though I have had and still have a few foamies). Not very practical or economically sound to build a balsa plane for this purpose though.

As for how THIS plane looks, I am very pleased with how it came out. That however is not MY doing, but rather Ken Spencers who has drawn the skin for the plane. Ill take the praise if it FLYS, but really cant accept any praise for how it looks!

"Show us more" you say. Well sure, but there really isnt much more to show you. If there is anything in particular you want to see then Ill certainly snap a picture and post it.
Ill be going to bed soon though (4:30 in the morning here) so it may have to wait til tomorrow.

Anders O
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Last edited by Zeroaltitude; Jan 25, 2005 at 09:36 PM.
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Old Jan 25, 2005, 10:44 PM
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Little Rock Regional, Arkansas, United States
Joined Sep 2002
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mine..

Heres Ken Spencer's Focke-Wulf 190A print laminated to 2.8mm Depron I did for a friend. He wanted something to chase my P-51 with. Enlarged to a 24 inch span. I have rolled the wing with some under camber. Will let him finish it up and see how it does. Maybe a little small for indoor but we will see. Should be fun.................. STRINGFLY <>+++++
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Old Jan 25, 2005, 10:51 PM
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link

Here's the link to the nice prints. http://users.joplin.com/~wcflyer/freedir.htm
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Old Jan 26, 2005, 05:55 AM
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Winchester MA
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OMG STRINGFLY I NEED THE 190! lol look at my sad attempt
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Old Jan 26, 2005, 05:56 AM
Jimbob55's Avatar
Joined Oct 2003
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I too have used some of Ken's designs, built the Hellcat 33" great flyer. Built the zero
in 26" span, flat wing stretched wing to 51/4" cord enlarged rudder and elevator to the famous TLAR method flys well with IPS with fan motor, seems to have plenty of power. I am curious how the undercambered wing will work. Glad someone else is trying the same thing. I used glue stick, some paper loosened some. what kind of
glue did you use? Thanks Jim
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Old Jan 26, 2005, 05:57 AM
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BTW the zero looks great. How are you laminating the depron? would a lightweight tissue work for blucor?
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Old Jan 26, 2005, 09:07 AM
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For the flight envelope of these planes (slow with high angle of attack, and not needing to fly straight while inverted) an undercambered wing is the way to go. The only problem is most people just leave the leading edge squared off and this really hurts performance. The best way to solve this is to add an extra 25% of the chord length to the leading edge, sand it to a point, and then fold it under and glue it to the underside of the wing. The resulting airfoil is the same airfoil some of the earliest planes used. Its the same airfoil birds, bats, and insects have. For our flight envolope it is the most effecient airfoil as long as you remember that in combat the only good reason to turn upside down is to dive like a stone.
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Old Jan 26, 2005, 11:11 AM
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Tr0gTX's Avatar
The Colony, TX
Joined Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acvar
For the flight envelope of these planes (slow with high angle of attack, and not needing to fly straight while inverted) an undercambered wing is the way to go. The only problem is most people just leave the leading edge squared off and this really hurts performance. The best way to solve this is to add an extra 25% of the chord length to the leading edge, sand it to a point, and then fold it under and glue it to the underside of the wing. The resulting airfoil is the same airfoil some of the earliest planes used. Its the same airfoil birds, bats, and insects have. For our flight envolope it is the most effecient airfoil as long as you remember that in combat the only good reason to turn upside down is to dive like a stone.
Can you post a pic or drawing of this technique? Apologies, but I am having trouble picturing it, or picturing it correctly, at least.
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Old Jan 26, 2005, 01:38 PM
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Orebro, Sweden
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Stringfly, yup, the FW190 is another nice piece of art from Ken. I just downloaded it yesterday.

As for the construction, theres really nothing to it. The material is 3mm grey depron. Both the fuselage and the wing has a 2mm carbonfibre rod in a channel (the one in the fuse running full length from the lower nose to above the h-stab, the one in the wing running out to about 5" from the tips). There is also a cf rod in the h-stab, just at the joint between stabiliser and elevator.
The wing was given a slight amount of undercamber before it was slid into the fuse. I then added one rib to each whinghalf (just at the rising sun ymbol) to hold undercamber, and massaged the rest of the wing to match.
To hold the foam together, as well as to hold the cf in place I used hot glue from a glue gun. Probably unneccessarily heavy, but SOOO conveinient!

The laminating process is simple enough too. Copy and enlarge the design. Cut out the individual pieces. Smear heat activated glue (the kind used on balsa airframes to attach mylar or Litespan, the one I use is called Balsaloc, but there are others such as Ecofix and so on) on to the depron sheets and let it dry for a couple of minutes. Then lay the paperdesing over the gluetreated depron, and use your coveringiron (set at low or medium temp) to activate the glue. Then cut out the laminated depron/paper, and in the case of the fuse, repeat with the opposite side.
I used a strip of tape to seal the paper/depron at the edges, which will both protect it from peeking off, and protect it from wear.

I agree with Acvars concern about efficiency. A blunt or square leading edge is definitely inefficient. However, I wouldnt go through that much trouble to build a wing for combat. It needs to be very simple and fast to put together, because chances are it will only last a few heats before you need to swap to the next airframe.
Plus, I seriously doubt that the higher efficiency of a 25% chord folded over depronsheet wing would make up for the added wheight? Sure, youd gain a bit in efficiency, but youd add quite a bit of wheight too (20% of the wings total wheight, or actually more since youd need glue to keep it folded over), and I seriously doubt that the gained effiency makes up for the added wheight.

To achieve a somewhat rounded leading edge, heres what I do: Run a strip of tape along the leading edge, and pinch it to achiece a rounded shape. This both adds strenght, and makes for a (probably rather small) increase in the wings efficiency.

Anders O
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