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Old Oct 13, 2012, 09:21 AM
WINS - Winch In Nose Sailplane
jaizon's Avatar
USA, NH
Joined Mar 2008
3,109 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcats View Post
I

Launches are 200meters? Wow! that's high.

Jun
Jun,

In the ESL (a big TD league) launches are regularly to 200 meters. I have measured mine and that's just about where I hit with a good launch. Other do even better. No one complains and says "Hey, let's shorten the winch line and launch lower, this is too easy." No one has ever mentioned that idea on R/C groups because launching higher than the other guy in TD contests is an advantage.

In ALES 200m may be too easy for some (and not high enough for others), depending on conditions, but seems to be an excellent height for the most level playing field. In ALES you can easily lower the launch height but doing this absolutely favors the better pilots who can work thermals at lower heights. Yet these pilots who do not call for shorter winch lines in TD contests. I am not opposed to reshaping ALES as we go along but we should tread carefully when doing so. The growth of this aspect of soaring has been nothing short of phenomenal over the last couple of years. Focusing on how to make it harder, e.g., pushing for the 150m launch, IMHO will not help that and will most likely reverse the trend. Part of the fun of ALES is its laid back nature and I see nothing wrong with that, in fact, its a big part of what drew me to it in the first place.

Landing runway to cut down on dorking - maybe, but (to paraphrase a well known CD) "learn how to manage your landings".

Plane stopping assist devices. Refer to the previous comment.

Is it harder to hit the 50 in ALES than the 100 in TD. No, but it is different and in its own way requires that you learn how to manage your landings.

1 point per inch off center line sounds like a suggestion from those who have not flown much ALES. I wonder who gets the advantage by raising the bar in that manner?

Balling up the tape. Not if I'm the CD.

I have had a ton of fun flying in ALES contests and I would like to keep it that way.

Preston
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 09:23 AM
SHADYBOY
United States, AZ, Phoenix
Joined Feb 2005
77 Posts
One thing we do a little different here in AZ is that the soaring time does not start until the end of the 30 second motor run window.

Time on the winch doesn't count so time on the nose winch shouldn't either.

Just food for thought.

Mike
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 09:27 AM
SHADYBOY
United States, AZ, Phoenix
Joined Feb 2005
77 Posts
Oh BTW we use 150M launch but we usally have super soaring conditions here in the desert. I think it should be up to the CD and the conditions of the day as they warrant.
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 09:50 AM
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Joined Feb 2007
703 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcats View Post
Xploder? Where did that come from? From what I've seen, so many other planes should have that term of endearment. LOL If you meant that they xplode to the top spots, then yeah, you're correct.
It's a term of endearment by some for xplorers.I like them.

ALES at Eldo! woohoo!
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 09:55 AM
Making wood fly since 2007
Windependence's Avatar
USA, MN, Rochester
Joined Mar 2008
2,495 Posts
At our first ALES contest this past summer we elected to go with 150 meter launches and to shorten the flight target time down to 7 minutes. It worked well for us, a group of new pilots flying mainly 2 meter woodie and foam sailplanes.

Wayne
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 12:44 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,642 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaizon View Post
Jun,

In ALES you can easily lower the launch height but doing this absolutely favors the better pilots who can work thermals at lower heights. Yet these pilots who do not call for shorter winch lines in TD contests. I am not opposed to reshaping ALES as we go along but we should tread carefully when doing so. The growth of this aspect of soaring has been nothing short of phenomenal over the last couple of years. Focusing on how to make it harder, e.g., pushing for the 150m launch, IMHO will not help that and will most likely reverse the trend. Part of the fun of ALES is its laid back nature and I see nothing wrong with that, in fact, its a big part of what drew me to it in the first place.
Who knows why TD flyers haven't shortened the launches? Maybe it's like the rest of life's opposition to change -- inertia.

I think the problem with your reasoning is that "easy tasks do not make easy competitions". In fact they do just the opposite -- they result in difficult competitions where the most talented flyers fight it out not over thermalling abilities, but the ability to hit the target time exactly. (And the landings become paramount) I have been trying to analyze all of the results from this year's F5J Intertour and appears that in these events, where the pilot essentially selects the launch height needed to achieve the task time, that competitive pilots are very frequently choosing heights around 100 meters. When I get more time this winter I will provide a detailed breakdown.

It is important that our rules provide interesting tasks for a wide range of skills and interests. But relatively easier tasks do not necessarily mean more interesting.

Quote:
Is it harder to hit the 50 in ALES than the 100 in TD. No, but it is different and in its own way requires that you learn how to manage your landings.

1 point per inch off center line sounds like a suggestion from those who have not flown much ALES. I wonder who gets the advantage by raising the bar in that manner?

Preston
It is much harder to lose more than 5 points in TD than it is with the standard ALES tape. I speak from personal experience. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have scored 95 or above on a TD tape (two hands for 90 or above). I EXPECT 45's on the ALES tape.

As for the runway landing, some of us have actually flown ALES and the runway. The runway is surely no miracle solution for anything, but it is an entertaining and interesting task -- and fair. And having worked at it with my ALES planes I would observe that it presents pretty much the same problem to ALES planes as it does to TD planes. Whereas I find it much easier to score with an ALES plane on an ALES tape, my scoring with the ALES plane is pretty much the same as my TD plane on the runway. In the limit, a runway with a 50 point max is a good compromise toward providing a task that does not become THE contest while providing a task which will sort out close thermal skills -- IF THE THERMAL TASK IS REALLY A TEST OF THERMAL SKILLS.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 01:39 PM
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Interesting Don that 100M is the number for the F5J guys. When we flew 100M at Dayton, I thought it would look really low, and it did not at all, and it is all realitive with everyone else at the same start. I do think that about any launch height a CD wants to call can be a good ALES event dependent on conditions, if it is really crummy, then 200, really good, then 100. I think a CD could change the height during the contest to kind of tighten the screws if he might be a real buzzard.

Landings
As Don, I think it is tougher as well to hit a 95+ landing on a one inch TD tape than a 45+ landing on the ALES tape, even with a skeg. 10 inches is a pretty small piece of property vs. 4 meters. On an inch increment tape, I am very happy to be making 80+ scores on them.

The only reason that I thought that the runway landing was a great comprimise was that slides became less of a dice roll since the scoring slice of the pie runs along the approximate same axis as the flight path of the sailplane. It is just an alternative to using a circle.

Marc
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 02:03 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
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Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OVSS Boss View Post
Tasks
Interesting Don that 100M is the number for the F5J guys. When we flew 100M at Dayton, I thought it would look really low, and it did not at all, and it is all realitive with everyone else at the same start. I do think that about any launch height a CD wants to call can be a good ALES event dependent on conditions, if it is really crummy, then 200, really good, then 100. I think a CD could change the height during the contest to kind of tighten the screws if he might be a real buzzard.

Landings
As Don, I think it is tougher as well to hit a 95+ landing on a one inch TD tape than a 45+ landing on the ALES tape, even with a skeg. 10 inches is a pretty small piece of property vs. 4 meters. On an inch increment tape, I am very happy to be making 80+ scores on them.

The only reason that I thought that the runway landing was a great comprimise was that slides became less of a dice roll since the scoring slice of the pie runs along the approximate same axis as the flight path of the sailplane. It is just an alternative to using a circle.

Marc
When I practice, I almost exclusively fly 100 meters. I am sure that I have ADD and it just keeps my attention better. One of the things I have discovered is that when I fly to 200 meters I waste a lot of that altitude -- some out of complacency and some because I cannot see what the plane is doing as well at 200 meters as I can at 100 meters.

I'll leave it to those who are at higher pay grades to figure out what makes the best event. The one thing I know with absolute certainty is that I feel like I have accomplished more when I make 10 minutes from 100 meters than I do from 200 meters. Given that, however, I still know that nine times out of ten, Larry will make more out of 100 meters than I will. That's why they award trophies and not certificates of participation. But for me, the participation is still enough of a reward.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 02:52 PM
Registered User
Okanagan Falls. British columbia. Canada
Joined Nov 2006
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Timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by roseberry View Post
One thing we do a little different here in AZ is that the soaring time does not start until the end of the 30 second motor run window.

Time on the winch doesn't count so time on the nose winch shouldn't either.

Just food for thought.

Mike
Mike,
It is very obvious on a winch launch when the glider drops the chute, I defy anybody to tell me when an electric motor stops turning at 200m. That is around 630 ft !!.All the timers with probably widely different visual accuity. Not very likely. Nobody can mistake when the thing leaves the launchers hand 5 or 6 ft from your nose ??


Ken.
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 04:27 PM
SHADYBOY
United States, AZ, Phoenix
Joined Feb 2005
77 Posts
Hi Ken,

Here is how we do it. We have a 30 second motor run window at the end of that 30 second window the recording says all motors off and timing starts now. Then the recording annouces every minute of flight time and counts down the last 10 seconds. That being said your timer keeps the offical clock.

Agreed there wouldn't be an accrate way just by obseving the aircraft.

Mike
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 04:49 PM
"...certainty is absurd."
kcaldwel's Avatar
Joined Jan 2007
3,625 Posts
But how does that work with the 10 second launch window? Or do you not have a 10 second launch window?

Kevin
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 04:57 PM
SHADYBOY
United States, AZ, Phoenix
Joined Feb 2005
77 Posts
Most times no we don't use a 10 second launch window. However you could if you wanted. As the recording announces the opening of the 30 second motor run time concurrently that is the opening of the 10 second launch window, 10 seconds later all planes must be launched. At the end of 30 seconds all motors off and timing starts now.

Mike
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 05:09 PM
"...certainty is absurd."
kcaldwel's Avatar
Joined Jan 2007
3,625 Posts
I can't see how that would work. Unless you launch at the buzzer, you would have less than a 30 second motor run, perhaps as little as 20 seconds. And since it is so difficult to tell if the motors are off at 200 m, you would have to rely on the pilots shutting-off rather than cut-off timer.

That method forces everyone to launch at the buzzer, and increases the mid-air danger at launch.

Kevin
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 07:15 PM
Mesa AZ, it's a dry heat!
USA, AZ, Mesa
Joined Oct 2004
620 Posts
Kevin, it works. I know , I have CDed about 10 of these events using this system.

The round begins with a 30 second launch window. The aircraft may be launched at any time during this 30 second window, BUT, the motor must be off by the end of the 30 second window. If the motor is started immediatly and the model launched then the motor is shut off by the CAM unit after 30 seconds, or at the pre-set altitude.
Some of us prefer to wait a little until the slower models are out of the way, and then launch, knowing that our models take only 14 seconds (in my case) to reach cut-off altitude.
Whichever method is used, the transmitter control is placed in the OFF position at or before the end of the 30 second launch window, at which time ALL individual timing devices are started.

I hope that clears it up for you.

Iain
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Old Oct 13, 2012, 09:27 PM
SHADYBOY
United States, AZ, Phoenix
Joined Feb 2005
77 Posts
Iain does a fantastic job running our events. He is wealth of knowlwdge. Now I'll put him on the spot. Are we going to have a full day of ALES at the SWC this year?
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