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Old Apr 27, 2012, 10:00 AM
miniture aircraft pilot
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United States, FL, Tampa
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i also like to teach them a flat turn. push the rudder all the way over and the hold the wings level with the ailerons. since they are comfortable with the ailerons they do this easy. but it also shows them how effective he rudder is.
another is a barrell roll( ail/rudd same direction) this allows a trainer to roll over quickly if the pilot goes inverted. and then the pilot can do rolls with out them taking so long (primary trainers here)
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Old Apr 28, 2012, 07:41 PM
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You know I get this a lot from full scale pilots who I train to fly RC. To tell you the truth they are the hardest pilots to train. Trying to take your full scale training and think it is going to help you fly RC is not the way to do it. If it was then why do the full scale pilots take just as long or longer to learn the radio then someone with out any flying hours.
Flying full scale you can feel what the plane is doing while a RC plane you can only see what it is doing. Two very different things. When an airplane approaches the stall with the inclinometer’s ball displaced even slightly, one wing may have a slightly larger angle of attack than the other. We don't have balls to look at on our radio, it's all sight.
Don't get me wrong, the use of rudder in our RC flying is totally undervalued. I see it in every takeoff that has the plane veering left and right down the runway before it finally lifts off. If you can't control your rudder enough to keep the plane running straight for lift off then no chance of using it while actually flying.
The AT-6 in the pictures was going in no matter how much rudder was used. The problem was not the lack of rudder but the lack of ground speed and the sudden pull up that lost even more airspeed when there was already insufficient airspeed to fly.
I have a few planes that have no rudder at all and they all fly fine and i have yet to bin one from stalling a wing. All good pilots can see the plane getting soft on the controls before it stalls and can correct with power, get any RC plane to slow and it stops flying.
Rudder is certainly on the list but add to that airspeed and working on a good approach. I see most accidents from bad landings that started with a bad approach. Takes a really good pilot to make a good landing from a bad approach, if your learning to fly then a good approach is mandatory to making a good landing. Different wind speeds just adds to the problems as well.
I see many new pilots and even veteran pilots who are doing a maiden on a new plane and they take off, trim and then fly around till it's time to land. No attempt at even practicing approaches with the new plane. No taking it up and letting it stall to get a feel for the speed it stalls at and no practicing to see how mushy the sticks feel when it gets really slow.
One other thing that would save planes is to learn to go around. Fits close to the good approach idea but when it starts to go bad it very rarely gets better. Go around and try again, if it takes 3 tries so be it, at least the plane gets down in one piece.
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Old Apr 29, 2012, 09:53 PM
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Learning the use and control a radio it should take equal time for either a GA pilot or a newby. Because those reflexes have nothing to do with aeronautics. I am saying that the vast majority of RC pilots do NOT use enough rudder in flying there models period. In RC all stalls are called "Tip Stalls" because they are uncoordinated stalls. Just watch YouTude and see the twins that crash because of an engine failure. I will say that 95% could have probably been saved if a propoer understanding and use of rudder were used. I have flown a lot of scratch built foamys that did not have rudder. You really miss it in a cross wind. Or if you trying to do HI ALPHA maneauvers. Because in those cases Rudder really shines.

I'm NOT bashing RC pilots verses GA pilots, just saying we all need to stress rudder coordination in all of our flying.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 12:36 PM
Illegitimi non carborundum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJWash1 View Post

We all see it - tail wheel pilots "yanking" their models off the ground before they're really ready to fly. Rule of thumb: if the tails not up, it ain't ready!

EJWash
I fully admit to being one of those. I'm entering my second year of RC flight with my second plane, which is also a tail dragger. I have a lot to learn about ground handling, takeoffs and flying the tail in general. This thread is a big help and I intend to apply some of the knowledge gained here the next time I go to the field.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 01:10 PM
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Stall commandment number two: Thou shalt not lift a falling wing with thy ailerons, but instead thou shalt simultaneously reduce the angle of attack and stop the yawing motion with rudder.

This is the KEY to controlling the stall, use the rudder NOT the ailerons to roll the wings level after a stall. Ailerons will only make the roll worst in the direction of the roll. Rudder will make the recovery.


P.S. Grosbeak, Glad this forum is helping. That is all I intended when I started it.
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Old May 01, 2012, 12:53 AM
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defintely helping. I'm going to start incorporating more rudder in my retraining regiment too. Phil
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Old May 01, 2012, 07:43 AM
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I spent some time on the simulator last night practicing approaches, aligning with the rudder. I really like how it works but it is taking me some time to get used to the controls as I've almost always corrected with aileron in the past. Good thing I've got the simulator!

I'm also getting some practice flying the tail on takeoff and I hope to apply what I'm learning the next time I go to the field.

Thanks, guys!
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Old May 01, 2012, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grosbeak View Post
I spent some time on the simulator last night practicing approaches, aligning with the rudder. I really like how it works but it is taking me some time to get used to the controls as I've almost always corrected with aileron in the past. Good thing I've got the simulator!

I'm also getting some practice flying the tail on takeoff and I hope to apply what I'm learning the next time I go to the field.
I'm betting that it's more relaxing.

Sims are a great tool. Give the following a try. Take-up the chase plane position (rear view of the model). Takeoff and get some altitude. Fly straight and level, keeping an eye on the horizon to stay orientated. Make a turn using ailerons only (don't worry about the nose falling). Return to straight and level flight. Now make a turn using ailerons and bringing in elevator to hold altitude. Return to straight and level flight. Now make a turn roll into a turn using ailerons, rudder, and elevator. Cool position to see what's really going on.

EJWash
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Old May 01, 2012, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJWash1 View Post
I'm betting that it's more relaxing.

Sims are a great tool. Give the following a try. Take-up the chase plane position (rear view of the model). Takeoff and get some altitude. Fly straight and level, keeping an eye on the horizon to stay orientated. Make a turn using ailerons only (don't worry about the nose falling). Return to straight and level flight. Now make a turn using ailerons and bringing in elevator to hold altitude. Return to straight and level flight. Now make a turn roll into a turn using ailerons, rudder, and elevator. Cool position to see what's really going on.

EJWash
My sim is Phoenix 4.0 - I don't know if it has that view, but I'll take a look.
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Old May 01, 2012, 06:59 PM
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Try that excersive described below with a high wing trainer. roll into a left turn with aileron only and watch the nose of the plane initially go right. And visa versa. If your simulator had the proper algorhythems it will show this. But in FSX simulator it does it and in the real planes it does it. It is called adverse Yaw. That is why most all planes need a little rudder just to make the nose start the turn in the direction that the ailerons are going. Some planes Old Aeronca Champs and Cubs take a "Boot" full of rudder to make that nose go the right way. Aerobatic planes like the Extra require "practically" NONE. It is all in design. But natural "Positive" stability in our standard catogory airplanes means it needs rudder of some degree.

By practicing leading your turn with a small amount of rudder you will see it takes a lot less aileron to make the turn.
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Old May 08, 2012, 07:47 PM
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I found an additional article by Mr. Barry Schiff a very talented and experienced instructor, I thought this would be good additional information for our discussion.

One could argue that there is nothing dangerous about a little slipping and skidding, to which I would respond, “You wanna’ bet?”

Imagine a pilot flying a single-engine airplane in a full-power climb and holding right aileron to maintain heading. Now assume that he allows the nose to get too high. Airspeed wanes and the airplane approaches a stall. Additional right aileron is added to compensate for the strengthening adverse yaw effect. When the airplane finally does stall, the pilot winds up applying full right aileron to prevent the airplane from yawing left. Bingo! He has inadvertently entered a left spin. Continuing to hold right aileron in a futile attempt to raise the lowered wing simply aggravates and intensifies the spin.

Spin recovery requires idling the engine, neutralizing the ailerons, applying full anti-spin rudder, and applying nose-down elevator (four steps easily remembered using the acronym, PARE). The problem is that a pilot lacking habitually proper stick-and-rudder skills may not have the ability to recover from the spin in a timely fashion, if at all.


Remember most high angle of attack takeoffs in marginally powered R/C trainers usually meet this fate. (Use that rudder NOT ailerons to keep that nose pointed) then even if you continue to hold that "death eatin crackers" angle of attack the stall will be straight and more controllable.
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Old May 10, 2012, 03:33 AM
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This thread has been a good read and hopefully it will help save a few planes and bucks =D i admit i didnt learn to use rudder except on the ground since it was a taildragger
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Old May 10, 2012, 04:39 AM
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there's been alot of threads on this recently. but tobe honest i only use the rudder to align the plane on landings and takeoffs i don't really know what the rudder is used for unless your flying pattern or 3D. I'd be more thank grateful if somebody could expain the use of the rudder in simple terms.
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Old May 10, 2012, 08:32 AM
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For one thing if you own a computer radio (that allows mixing) mix in a little rudder with your ailerons. You will notice first that it will take less stick movement to get the same turning response. Second your turns will look better because the tail will not "sag" behind the plane. (With RC plane most turns I have witnessed are climbing turns because of the tail sag, unless it is knife edge.) Also and the best benefit is if you are in a high angle of attack and you start to stall as with most people you will try to raise the dropping wing with aileron by having rudder mixed in it could save your bacon so to speak. Certainly it will be better than with aileron alone. (give it a try).
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Old May 13, 2012, 09:03 PM
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O.K. This is great since I just started flying again after a long absence. Flying a Nexstar trainer and doing well but definitely want to learn better rudder usage. One term I have heard over and over again concerning appoach to landing is when the plane is coming toward you to "push the aileron stick towards the low wing" to correct and make the plane level. Having read this thread through it seems that a better practice would be to "push the rudder stick to the high wing". Does this hold true and should I be practicing this?

Also, how much rudder should I mix in with ailerons for good coordinated turns?
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