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Old Sep 19, 2013, 04:36 AM
NZ - Where Kiwi's love to fly.
New Zealand
Joined Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eye4wings View Post
... with the possibility of an 'interesting ' discussion at the hospital bedside next day?...

That'd put a different complexion on 'separation distances' wouldn't it?
That would depend on just how far away she was from her right arm!
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Old Sep 19, 2013, 09:36 AM
Professional Amateur
Rusty Mustard's Avatar
Joined Feb 2013
1,794 Posts
Hey, she just got married to that plane, she can do that if she wants, but it's improper to touch an unmarried plane's rudder while it's hovering. You'll get slapped for doing that.

Later they're gonna consummate, with a 3d routine in the bedroom of the honeymoon suite. Now THAT could be dangerous!
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Old Sep 21, 2013, 11:24 PM
Registered User
United States, MN, Brownsdale
Joined Dec 2008
27 Posts
I see lots of old timers start there glow engines with the plane pointed right at them. They sit in front of it tuning the engine. Of course there is the 30 year old air plane holder keeping it away from there body and the prop nut they tightened 20 years ago holding the prop on. No problem there though right.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 02:44 AM
NZ - Where Kiwi's love to fly.
New Zealand
Joined Apr 2010
138 Posts
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Originally Posted by Blade-breaker View Post
I see lots of old timers start there glow engines with the plane pointed right at them. They sit in front of it tuning the engine. Of course there is the 30 year old air plane holder keeping it away from there body and the prop nut they tightened 20 years ago holding the prop on. No problem there though right.
It's almost sound's like your trying to excuse the actions of someone playing 'grab the tail' of a plane in flight by pointing fingers at someone/thing else (re the original video).
Unsafe practices are unsafe practices, gas or glow engines (almost always) require you to be in front of them to start the thing, so there is always going to be an element of danger if the proper precautions are not taken (as most of us do).
Most of the old timers in question (at least the ones I know) check and maintain their aircraft a hell of lot better than the majority of the RTF/ARF electric 'youngins' I see at our club, who just rock up with a bunch of pre-charged batteries and their souped up foamie hot-rod bullet that is just let rip without a second thought about pre-flight checks.
While I'm not looking to start a 'war of the ages', you tell me who is safer by default!?!?
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwibob72 View Post
It's almost sound's like your trying to excuse the actions of someone playing 'grab the tail' of a plane in flight by pointing fingers at someone/thing else (re the original video).
Unsafe practices are unsafe practices, gas or glow engines (almost always) require you to be in front of them to start the thing, so there is always going to be an element of danger if the proper precautions are not taken (as most of us do).
Most of the old timers in question (at least the ones I know) check and maintain their aircraft a hell of lot better than the majority of the RTF/ARF electric 'youngins' I see at our club, who just rock up with a bunch of pre-charged batteries and their souped up foamie hot-rod bullet that is just let rip without a second thought about pre-flight checks.
While I'm not looking to start a 'war of the ages', you tell me who is safer by default!?!?
Yep, there's a huge difference between necessary risk and and unnecessary risk.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 10:39 AM
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United States, MN, Minneapolis
Joined Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwibob72 View Post
While I'm not looking to start a 'war of the ages', you tell me who is safer by default!?!?
The guys who use the flying field as a social club, sit in the shade while they talk about their winter homes down in Arizona or Florida before heading home for their 11:00 a.m. nap are the safest, so long as they are not flying or harassing those who are. I don't mind them, but they don't seem to particularly enjoy other members who enjoy flying.

The next younger level of older guys who fly, of at least the ones that I know, who don't practice enough, keep making excuses on why they don't buy a sim to build muscle memory because computers are hard, who put their planes in trees, do uncontrolled loops (plural) over the pits with their p-51 before crashing it hard on the runway (just happened recently) are the ones who scare me. Even so, I keep encouraging them. The more they are encouraged and the more they practice the more they will learn and the safer they will become.

Those young whippersnappers who practice much more, keep the kinetic energy of the plane pointed away from the pits, people, and property, are able if necessary to land their planes safely with one wing, or with a seized aileron servo, or with a seized rudder servo, or with no ailerons, or, worst case, ditch the plane somewhere other than the pits...all of which are much more difficult if not impossible to control with an underpowered glow trainer on low rates with a malfunction.

To be sure, a hovering plane has a spinning prop that is dangerous. But a warbird doing a speed pass has the same dangerous spinning prop, and a mess of kinetic energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Mustard View Post
Yep, there's a huge difference between necessary risk and and unnecessary risk.
Flying RC planes is absolutely unnecessary for the vast majority of hobbiests.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 12:10 PM
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United States, WA, Port Angeles
Joined Dec 2009
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you risk life and limb, every time bring an RC aircraft too life!

be it a 2cell electric, too a 200cc large scale.

it is not a matter of if, it is always a matter of "WHEN" something is gonna go wrong!
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7oneWo1f View Post
Flying RC planes is absolutely unnecessary for the vast majority of hobbiests.
Yes, but so is 90% of the stuff people do, but within the context of this discussion it applies to the risk necessary to participate in the chosen activity. Take it out of context and it's just meaningless semantic gibberish.

You know what's absolutely unnecessary for a vast majority of people? Working within an environment of real airplanes and helis, having to do GPU starts and hot fuels within an arm's length of jet intakes, 20 foot diameter props spinning at feather, and ducking jet blast while operating a high volume fuel delivery system. It's necessary if missions are going to be a success. What's silly is getting within 50 yards of the situation when there's no need to be there, or conducting hot fueling in a non-urgent situation.

Maybe it's just me, but due to my experience in real aviation, i tend to have a respect for things like props, rotors, turbines, and aviation safety in general.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 01:39 PM
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United States, MN, Minneapolis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Mustard View Post
meaningless semantic gibberish.
There is a real meaning between "necessary" and "unnecessary". In context, to touch a rudder while hovering, it is necessary to be near the plane as well.

Ultimately, the point is standing under a spinning prop while touching the rudder in a hover is danagerous hypothetically, but full speed formation passes near the pits is demonstrably more dangerous in my view.

People without good hand eye coordination flying at events or even when others are around is dangerous.

People starting gas planes without restriants is dangerous.

People tuning their engine from in front of the prop is dangerous.

People starting their plane with loved ones off to the side of the prop is dangerous.

But low speed 3D on planes gets bed wetters (this is in general, not anybody in particular) up in arms.

Do you of any actual low speed 3D injuries?

I've searched a lot of videos for RC injuries. Overwealming majority are from props or helicopters. I'd post but they are graphic. Either starting gas / glow, or carrying an electric plane that is armed and bumping the throttle with no throttle cut in TX, or hand launching pusher props.

I have yet to see any 3D injury videos. They might exist, but the real danger in my view is warbirds, electric pusher props, and starting gas.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 02:34 PM
NZ - Where Kiwi's love to fly.
New Zealand
Joined Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7oneWo1f View Post
..........I have yet to see any 3D injury videos. They might exist, but the real danger in my view is warbirds, electric pusher props, and starting gas.
The heli guys I fly with who just "have' to fly 3D right in front of their face USED to say that at the start of the year, now, with 3 deaths as a result of 3D style flying this year to date, not so much.
Digging your head in the sand and saying any flying right in front of your face is "necessary" just means one is a statistic waiting to happen in my books. My wife treated many people with that same mindset as a community nurse over the years.
Remember, just because you do something questionable any without issue to date does not make it right, just dam lucky.
And in my books, ANYONE flying right in front of their face with an aircraft under limited control due to low air speed across the entire control surface, or running at full speed across pit lines, is just asking for trouble. I guess that's why we keep around a 100ft gap between the pits and flight lines where I fly.
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 02:31 PM
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USA, TX, Grapevine
Joined Dec 2008
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Well I guess it is time we start buying special kevlar body suits and head coverings and wearing good googles so keep the airplane propellers and helicopter rotor blades from chopping us all up.
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 05:27 PM
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Hemet, California, United States
Joined Aug 2001
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You're gonna get screwgled if you try to wear those googles to protect your face.......
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 07:00 PM
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winston mo
Joined Oct 2006
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I guess I'm screwed. I have horrible hand control. But I love flying. Some people think I'm a good pilot. But I do have bad hands. I guess I'm lucky in that I mainly fly at a small club with a private field.
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 10:52 AM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
4,168 Posts
And everyone who flies differently than 7oneWo1f is dangerous! Take all casual fliers-- they're dangerous. Take all pattern and scale pilots. They're dangerous too. Only 3D is safe. Don't know if helicopters qualify, you'll have to ask 7oneWo1f.

There's a lot of unnecessary (little play on terms tossed around casually here. Feel free to laugh or not) petty intolerance in 7oneWo1f's posts there. That scares me. I'm a guy with questionable hand/eye coordination. I fly within my limits and probably spend more time thinking about safety than someone who takes atypical skill for granted. Those are the people who are taken by surprise when things that are foreseeable by us mere mortals go wrong.

Who was the pilot of the helicopter that killed him recently. An expert--amazing with hand-eye coordination. He had the best equipment. But the part of the brain that reflects on the possibilities if you make a mistake was underdeveloped. Gifted people are often like that, as they look down their nose at those of us who are truly human, who "who put their planes in trees" and can't do a rolling harrier to save their lives.

Elitism is always ugly. It's uglier when it masquerades as "concern for safety."
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Old Oct 14, 2013, 01:48 PM
NZ - Where Kiwi's love to fly.
New Zealand
Joined Apr 2010
138 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
..............

Who was the pilot of the helicopter that killed him recently. An expert--amazing with hand-eye coordination. He had the best equipment. But the part of the brain that reflects on the possibilities if you make a mistake was underdeveloped. Gifted people are often like that, as they look down their nose at those of us who are truly human, who "who put their planes in trees" and can't do a rolling harrier to save their lives.

Elitism is always ugly. It's uglier when it masquerades as "concern for safety."
I quite like that statement, as it's very true.
There are always going to be elements of the hobby that have some level of danger about them, we fly things that are fast and come with spinning blades out the front of them for the most part, so great care is always required on that front. Prob bites are always an issue for us with prop planes, as all combustion engines need us to be near them to start (unless you have an inbuilt electronic starter on a gas motor), which is why we take a lot of care when doing this normally - yet "accidents" will happen as we are only human.
The 3D to prop bite argument is pointless as way more people 'start' a motor each day than there are people who fly 40% Yak's while trying to grab the tail. As the number of tail grabbing idiots each day will odds on be quite low (god I hope so), and the number of people starting a motor each day so high, of course the numbers will look towards prop bite as being much more dangerous.
As for taking your hand off your control and grabbing the rudder of a large (40% remember) Yak54 while it's in hover right in front of you, that's just utter stupidity. Digging your head in the sand and trying to convey that that is in ANY way acceptable is (IMO) nothing less than blind arrogance as a result of a complete inability to accept ones own actions as unsafe.
My whole point is this, 3D flight in itself can be quite acceptable and safe (just like ANY style of flight), yet if we encourage things like grabbing a planes tail while in flight (or getting a bride to do it for a dam wedding pic), then it becomes unsafe.
Any style of flight that is done by anyone without thought of the consequences can become unsafe in a heartbeat. That young man with the heli was a sponsored pilot from my understanding, so was obviously quite good, so if nothing else, please take that unnecessary behavior or risks can become fatal in a split second no matter how many times you have done it or how good you think you are.
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