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Old Mar 06, 2011, 03:10 PM
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Deutschland, Hessen, LA
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Originally Posted by cayars View Post
Just throwing something out here. You could be getting "brownouts" on the polaris that the 6110s are recovering from quickly so you don't notice anything in flight. Care to try an experiment? Try putting the 6200 in that plane with the power drops that the other receiver is coping with and let us know how the 6200 does in that environment.

If you don't want to try this I totally understand. Don't know how adventurous you are.
But when occur a brownout at a AR6110? ~2.5V
The 2.7V was not low enough for trigger a brownout idicator.
No reboot no brownout.
The problem is not the RX the problem are the servos!
Not enough current mean not enough actuating power.
Recorver your RX fast is that bad for a bad power supply.
Then ends a looping as standing nine.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 03:13 PM
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Canada, ON, Rockland
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Originally Posted by cayars View Post
..Just out of curiosity. For anyone who has experienced 6200/DX8 glitches. Did you have any other telemetry or FPV video or any other "extra" electronic equipment in the aircraft?
What glitches? signal issues? Cause I had the LED flash for no reason. All of them flying with the Dx8 Telemetry but never had flight issues with it.

AR6200 PID# HT805E with sat# TA907B
AR6200 PID# HC909B with sat# TA909B

Both show signs of LED flashing issue when connected to DX8

Again No flight issues witnessed.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kambalunga View Post
But when occur a brownout at a AR6110? ~2.5V
Spektrum states the minimum voltage for their RX's is 3.5V. If you manage to keep it operating below 3.5V that would be quite interesting!
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 03:14 PM
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by philipa_240sx View Post
Spektrum states the minimum voltage for their RX's is 3.5V. If you manage to keep it operating below 3.5V that would be quite interesting!
Power Requirement for FASST: 4.8V- 6.0V and works nevertheless down to 2.7V and loopings and curves then more angular shaped.

Power requirement and when a brownout happen are two different things.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 03:39 PM
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I have bound a 8000rx at very low voltages and then tried to operate the system
The servos went absolutely wild - going in all directions BUT the movments kept right on moving around
The rx "apparantly" never quit - but the servos could not perform.
This was DSMX and th servo light kept flashing on /off as power shut down and instantly reset as servo load went on and off
You can repeat this experiment using a small 4.8 volt rx battery which is almost depleted.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Victory Pete View Post
The nightmare continues! I think a universal ban would get Horizon Hobby to wake up and get with the program. It seems everything today suffers from what I call "SBS".(Superceded By Sh#t). Whenever a new product come out it is worse than its predecessors.
Had enough,
VP
I can see a complete recall happening here !
Lets see where this goes. Class Action possible.

I had my 450 drop out of the sky for no reason the other day again with absolutely no issue showing on the Tx or Rx....
i swear it wasn;t my thumbs could be wrong but ive shelved it and gone back to DX7se till this sorts itself out. Safety concerns.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by cayars View Post
Guys, I should have clarified a bit more what I was talking about with a "ban". I was specifically talking about the DX8/6200 combo being banned for use at the fields. Not the DX8 as a whole. If I didn't write that or it didn't come across I apologize.

The object is not to punish a DX8 owner, but to bring attention to the fact that there is enough documention to establish a potential problem that can cause a safety issue. Another club member has suggested that a person could certify his 6200 for use with the DX8 by having shown it doesn't cause any glitches using a foamy to fly a couple of packs through it while making sure no incidents occur. This would serve the purpose of finding the really problematic receivers right off the bat.

I honestly don't know how this is going to unfold. Maybe just bringing this combo (dx8/6200) to the attention of everyone in the clubs will be enough. As it stands now the 2 of us are aware of the issue and can take the proper steps to not fly this combo.

We do plan on running similar tests with the 6100 series receivers and see what happens. I know I've made up little labels on crack and peel paper that say "DX8 checked" on them and another that says "DX8 failed" on them and as I've been running different receivers with the DX8 I've been labeling these as I go.

So hopefully this helps to clarify the mindset on the "ban".
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Originally Posted by cayars View Post
Not as controlled evaluations as mine so I don't value his results as much as my own.

Scientifically, no.

I've only had my DX8 for a few weeks with a few days worth of flying time.

Call it a hunch, but I honestly don't think it's a power issue. I base this "guess" on the fact of using different quality ESC and also the separate battery pack. Also the fact that these same combos never caused problems with other transmitters.

At this time all I have done is try with different ESCs (quality units) like the Airboss and ICE controllers and also with fully charged battery pack with no ubec powering the radios. No logging has been done at this time. I do believe the ICE controllers can do logging but I haven't gotten that far yet. One of my buds does have an Eagle Tree Logger that I'm sure he would let me borrow. Getting some logging data to check power issues is something I'm planning on doing but have yet to do. While I don't think it's a power issue I do want to rule this out in a controller manner.



You could be right about a "marginal" setup. This in itself is pretty scary. Something marginal that works fine with a JR, DX5, DX6i and DX7 that just doesn't work reliably with a DX8 is in itself cause for alarm. But that is speculation.

I'm not a nay-sayer, a spectrum basher or anything like that. I love this platform but I'm concerned right now. While HH is known for it's customer support it "feels" like we are being let down with this issue. All we ever hear/or read is that things were tested and sent back. This might be one of those odd situations where lab/bench testing isn't going to find a problem easily. I know I'd feel a lot better about the situation if I knew HH was actively trying to pinpoint the said issue by flying some of the problematic returned receiver/transmitters as apposed to just bench checking them.

Carlo
Sorry but now you really kind of lost me. I asked if there was any testing.You say "Scientifically no". But previously stated that there is "enough documentation" to show a problem with specific combos of equipment.I replay ths game regularly at my local field.Im not sure what you are expecting HH to do.I hear the no official admission of a problem from HH arguement constantly.Then it goes into the psuedo conspiracy theories and arguements back and forth based on speculation.This gets absolutely nowhere and only compounds and further masks what the actual "issue" is.
I have seen a response from HH on alot of the problems ppl have when they are screaming "lockout". It is always "ensure your system is supplied with adequate power to prevent the system from "brownout".Then the arguements start."it is fine with my other radio" "its been fine for 2 years until now" "Ive done testing and it isnt my setup" etc etc.
If theres a problem you absolutely must do some actual scientific testing and/or logging to confirm your stance.

Like I said before all of this really disturbs me.ALOT.I fly AR600,6100,6110,6200,7000,7100,7100R,8000,9000.DX7 for the last 3 years.DX8 for about 6 months now(Since Aug when they were released).When I first started with 2.4 Spektrum 3 years ago the whole brownout issue was ugly.It still is.IMO it has fueled the whole BrandF vs BrandS fire.It made my head spin.Being the scientific tinkering type I am a BIG question mark loomed over me.How the heck am I going to figure all this out myself? I bought an eagletree data monitor.I can plug it into the PC and have realtime data on the bench for setup or stick it in the plane during flights to see exactly what is going on with voltage/amperage at any specific point in the system.

Lets just say that what I discovered was enlightening to say the least.Assumptions about what you think is going on in a setup especially helis are for the most part tossed out the window.I explained all this in previous posts on various threads on different forums and it doesnt get very far but Ill just say one thing I know for a FACT.Without testing that a specific application is going to work without browning out your on a wing and a prayer like I can bet at least half of todays modelers are.I see more often than not HH testing returned Rxs and saying they check out fine.They test them to specs.Does anyone honestly believe they know something we arent supposed to know or are afraid to admit and are lying? Lets be realistic here.
What really needs to happen is that it is tested in the actual application.Are you going to ship your entire model to HH and have them test the setup?
Is that their responsibilty? IMO and from my experience I tend to believe if they were aware of a confirmed safety issue with any specific combination of equipment they would notify us immediately.

I know Im repeating myself but my experience helping others has shown 99.9some% of the time that for one reason or another their 2.4 "lockout" problem is directly related to brownout/voltage sag at the Rx bus.For any number of reasons.#1 actual problem I see is Plug and Pray for example a 6amp BEC and in operation with high load on everything the system is using maybe 4 amps.But at 2amps the voltage starts dropping and at 4 its precariously close to 3 volts at the bus.What does this mean? It means the BEC or lead or connector or switch or something is certainly not providing 6amps of your specified voltage to the Rx bus.IMO if it has crashed this is the direct cause.If it hasnt it is going to.

Ok this whole thing is rather entertaining to me in a way.Im not being combative Im just pissy that it is raining today and I cant fly.
So Ill comment on club politics for a sec and try to stay on topic.If we are going to talk about banning something at a club then lets talk about banning all aircraft that are not setup with basic testing procedures to assure the electrical supply system is adequate for whatever it is being expected to do.
It is funny to me because this discussion has come up before.At our local club here Id say that probably would ban well over half of the aircraft at the field if not substantially more.Of the ones not tested my experience shows that probably 75% of those if tested are likely marginal.So if your going to draw a line is it going to be based on hype and hysteria or science?Id say our club is pretty typical of an old 200+ member AMA gold club.Why I go there sometimes is beyond me when I have my own private field to fly without all the club hysteria and drama.I guess thats part of what I like about to hobby though.We are all different and we help each other out in one way or another.

So far Ive been very fortunate.No unexplained inflight loss of control problem on anything I have setup.Ive had my share of failures for dozens of reasons.None that werent traced to a component other than the Tx/Rx.Maybe Im lucky and Im not saying there havent been or wont be isolated cases where everything else has been ruled out.I have seen a few of those personally but I can count them on the fingers of one hand and they are spread across various manufacturers so Ill not say more.They do get quickly sorted.I have seen hundreds immediately blamed on the "faulty Tx/Rx" with no actual testing to rule out the setup.

In a nutshell Yes I think I may probably be right about "marginal setup".This is what my experience has shown with actual hard data testing equipment.
My DX8 is fine so far.Theres always the evolution of programming but nothing that makes it unsafe to fly.Look at what it is and what we used to have.Its a dang computer.Alot of the guys at our field can barely program a VCR and run away screaming when you say laptop or dongle. Yet they get a radio like ths and complain when it doesnt magically make everything work perfectly when you just plug everything in and turn it on?

Hey the rain stopped and its getting brighter outside.Thanks for letting me waste your time blabbering.In done...going flying.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 04:36 PM
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Man it really as been a long winter.You guys are like a pack of hungry jackals. Oh yeah...Im going flying and having some fun so neener neeener neener.Im issueing a recall on warmer nicer flying weather.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 05:20 PM
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Bridgeton, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kambalunga View Post
Power Requirement for FASST: 4.8V- 6.0V and works nevertheless down to 2.7V and loopings and curves then more angular shaped.

Power requirement and when a brownout happen are two different things.
Yea, but this is about Spectrum equipment and not Futaba FAST.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by aerocal View Post
Sorry but now you really kind of lost me. I asked if there was any testing.You say "Scientifically no".
That was specific to the question you asked "What Im trying to understand as I read all the "issue reports" is whether anyone has confirmed that it is not a power issue"

Scientifically, I can't prove this not to be the case YET. I'm pretty sure it isn't but until I do some logging I can't be sure. You can read my first post #4615 which shows how the power was changed and the use of a flight battery to power the system so I don't think there is a power problem.

Quote:
But previously stated that there is "enough documentation" to show a problem with specific combos of equipment.I replay ths game regularly at my local field.Im not sure what you are expecting HH to do.I hear the no official admission of a problem from HH arguement constantly.Then it goes into the psuedo conspiracy theories and arguements back and forth based on speculation.This gets absolutely nowhere and only compounds and further masks what the actual "issue" is.
Well for starters I'd love to hear that HH is looking into this specific problem. I'll call it a "problem" because it's happened enough from the reports that it is a problem. It could turn out to be a HH problem or a user/setup/equipment problem but it's a problem non the less for many.
Quote:
I have seen a response from HH on alot of the problems ppl have when they are screaming "lockout". It is always "ensure your system is supplied with adequate power to prevent the system from "brownout".Then the arguements start."it is fine with my other radio" "its been fine for 2 years until now" "Ive done testing and it isnt my setup" etc etc.
If theres a problem you absolutely must do some actual scientific testing and/or logging to confirm your stance.
I do not disagree with what you say here. It can very well be a self-induced problem/issue. BUT, it's happened to many. The problem of safety still remains. When you have an aircraft that flies perfect with other different radios and you then go out and purchase a newer/better radio that last thing anyone thinks about is if the aircraft is flight worthy. They already "know" this to be the case. All they do is re-bind to the new transmitter and then the problems occur for some people (with 6200s). No expects a new transmitter to "bring out" a problem with their existing equipment that has been working (sometimes for years) without a problem. This is the major issue on my mind.

Quote:
Like I said before all of this really disturbs me.ALOT.I fly AR600,6100,6110,6200,7000,7100,7100R,8000,9000.DX7 for the last 3 years.DX8 for about 6 months now(Since Aug when they were released).When I first started with 2.4 Spektrum 3 years ago the whole brownout issue was ugly.It still is.IMO it has fueled the whole BrandF vs BrandS fire.It made my head spin.Being the scientific tinkering type I am a BIG question mark loomed over me.How the heck am I going to figure all this out myself? I bought an eagletree data monitor.I can plug it into the PC and have realtime data on the bench for setup or stick it in the plane during flights to see exactly what is going on with voltage/amperage at any specific point in the system.

Lets just say that what I discovered was enlightening to say the least.Assumptions about what you think is going on in a setup especially helis are for the most part tossed out the window.I explained all this in previous posts on various threads on different forums and it doesnt get very far but Ill just say one thing I know for a FACT.Without testing that a specific application is going to work without browning out your on a wing and a prayer like I can bet at least half of todays modelers are.I see more often than not HH testing returned Rxs and saying they check out fine.They test them to specs.
I agree with everything you just said. I too am going down the logging route to try and get to the bottom of the issue. However, everyone/most aren't like us. They won't go down this road. Many in fact would have no clue how to do it. BUT no one should have to do this. When you have a system that works with one transmitter and upgrade to a better/compatible transmitter it should still work. When it doesn't work 100% of the time it's a problem.

Quote:
Does anyone honestly believe they know something we arent supposed to know or are afraid to admit and are lying? Lets be realistic here.
I'm not touching this. I don't want to go down this road.
Quote:
What really needs to happen is that it is tested in the actual application.Are you going to ship your entire model to HH and have them test the setup?
Is that their responsibilty? IMO and from my experience I tend to believe if they were aware of a confirmed safety issue with any specific combination of equipment they would notify us immediately.

I know Im repeating myself but my experience helping others has shown 99.9some% of the time that for one reason or another their 2.4 "lockout" problem is directly related to brownout/voltage sag at the Rx bus.For any number of reasons.#1 actual problem I see is Plug and Pray for example a 6amp BEC and in operation with high load on everything the system is using maybe 4 amps.But at 2amps the voltage starts dropping and at 4 its precariously close to 3 volts at the bus.What does this mean? It means the BEC or lead or connector or switch or something is certainly not providing 6amps of your specified voltage to the Rx bus.IMO if it has crashed this is the direct cause.If it hasnt it is going to.
You very well may be right. But this still doesn't get around the safety concern. An aircraft running a 6200 with a DX5/DX6i/DX7 that is upgraded to a DX8 should not have a concern and shouldn't have to go pulling teath to find a "new problem" they never had before. The aircraft (receiver and complete system) should continue to perform the same as it previously did. It should not exhibit new characteristics or the new transmitter (ie DX8) isn't really truly compatible.
Quote:
Ok this whole thing is rather entertaining to me in a way.Im not being combative Im just pissy that it is raining today and I cant fly.
So Ill comment on club politics for a sec and try to stay on topic.If we are going to talk about banning something at a club then lets talk about banning all aircraft that are not setup with basic testing procedures to assure the electrical supply system is adequate for whatever it is being expected to do.
It is funny to me because this discussion has come up before.At our local club here Id say that probably would ban well over half of the aircraft at the field if not substantially more.Of the ones not tested my experience shows that probably 75% of those if tested are likely marginal.So if your going to draw a line is it going to be based on hype and hysteria or science?Id say our club is pretty typical of an old 200+ member AMA gold club.Why I go there sometimes is beyond me when I have my own private field to fly without all the club hysteria and drama.I guess thats part of what I like about to hobby though.We are all different and we help each other out in one way or another.
We do this at our club for anything bigger then 60 size planes. All helis are checked out. We also have a strict heli program in place based on IRCHA. No one flies helis at our field without passing a certain level. No flying helis at all (besides hover practice) until you pass level 1. Then you can fly the routines in level 2 but nothing more then this until you pass level 2. Nothing bigger then a 600 until you pass level 3. This prevents people from going out and doing tic-tocs and stuff when they aren't ready for it and loosing control. Getting past level 2 of the IRCHA PPP program is not hard. If someone can't do those maneuvers they don't belong doing 3D anyway. Foundation first.

Many would say they would never fly at a club like this but because of the help we give and the instruction programs we have in place PLUS the SAFETY we take into consideration we are growing really fast. Nothing is dictated from the top down. Everything is done by the membership at large. Our particular club happens to put safety above everything else. Our members are all super friendly and helpful. We don't have clicks and we welcome everything. Planes, jets, helis. Putting safety first does not have to be restrictive if done correctly!

Now back to topic.
Quote:
So far Ive been very fortunate.No unexplained inflight loss of control problem on anything I have setup.Ive had my share of failures for dozens of reasons.None that werent traced to a component other than the Tx/Rx.Maybe Im lucky and Im not saying there havent been or wont be isolated cases where everything else has been ruled out.I have seen a few of those personally but I can count them on the fingers of one hand and they are spread across various manufacturers so Ill not say more.They do get quickly sorted.I have seen hundreds immediately blamed on the "faulty Tx/Rx" with no actual testing to rule out the setup.

In a nutshell Yes I think I may probably be right about "marginal setup".This is what my experience has shown with actual hard data testing equipment.
My DX8 is fine so far.Theres always the evolution of programming but nothing that makes it unsafe to fly.Look at what it is and what we used to have.Its a dang computer.Alot of the guys at our field can barely program a VCR and run away screaming when you say laptop or dongle. Yet they get a radio like ths and complain when it doesnt magically make everything work perfectly when you just plug everything in and turn it on?

Hey the rain stopped and its getting brighter outside.Thanks for letting me waste your time blabbering.In done...going flying.
Hey, I enjoyed your post. I've never had glitches before that I couldn't narrow down to some component going bad or of course a dumb-thumb pilot error (happens to the best of us). This one just has me baffled (for now) and concerned.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 08:13 PM
AndyKunz's Avatar
Illinois
Joined Sep 2001
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Carlo,

I can easily tell you that the "hold the bind button down the whole time" is not going to change anything. The transmitter goes into bind mode upon the pressing of the button at startup. Bind is internally accomplished by sending a single command to the RF deck. By the time you see the bind screen, it is already well into the bind process! Holding the button down does nothing; the command will not be repeated, nothing about the traffic to the RF deck will change.

Re Toyota, there's a great discussion of a third-party review (done by NASA) if you check here are a few links. I got this info from the electronics sites I use for my work.

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/nasalife/...ota-study.html
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-b...ot-it--Toyota-
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/t...610_p336552942

Andy
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 10:25 PM
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Central California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory Pete View Post
The nightmare continues! I think a universal ban would get Horizon Hobby to wake up and get with the program. It seems everything today suffers from what I call "SBS".(Superceded By Sh#t). Whenever a new product come out it is worse than its predecessors.
Had enough,
VP
Pete Pete Pete shame shame shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFusion View Post
I can see a complete recall happening here !
Lets see where this goes. Class Action possible.

I had my 450 drop out of the sky for no reason the other day again with absolutely no issue showing on the Tx or Rx....
i swear it wasn;t my thumbs could be wrong but ive shelved it and gone back to DX7se till this sorts itself out. Safety concerns.
Ths really serves no useful purpose.Honestly it is kind of annoying as well.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 11:46 PM
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This is random info, but I tested the DX8 v2.1 with the AR7000. At one point my 3cell flight pack dropped to 8.2 volts and battery alarm went off. I brought it in with barely enough juice to make it back to runway. To say the least, absolutely no issues. No holds, no reboots.
Next time I fly, I'm gonna test the AR6115 in DSM2 mode.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 12:02 AM
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Joined Mar 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
Carlo,

I can easily tell you that the "hold the bind button down the whole time" is not going to change anything. The transmitter goes into bind mode upon the pressing of the button at startup. Bind is internally accomplished by sending a single command to the RF deck. By the time you see the bind screen, it is already well into the bind process! Holding the button down does nothing; the command will not be repeated, nothing about the traffic to the RF deck will change.
Thanks Andy, guess I'll cross that off my list.

Anything you can think of off the top of your head I didn't cover I should try/test?
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