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Old Aug 19, 2014, 08:12 PM
Some people call me Maurice
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Thousand Oaks, CA
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More endpoint musings... (Continued from here.)

I recently had an occassion to setup an Airtronics SD-10G and found the same completely wrong usage of the term "End Point". Airtronics properly uses the same "Limit" term as Futaba to refer to the true endpoint but they use the incorrect term "EPA" to refer to the gain. Here is an interesting quote from the Airtronics manual warning that end points are neither ends nor points:
Quote:
IMPORTANT End Point Adjustment is not the same as Limits and should not be used in the same manner as Limits. Whereas Limits will Limit the maximum servo travel in either direction, End Point Adjustment does not. End Point Adjustment is designed to balance the control throw on both sides of servo travel and can be overridden by other settings, such as Dual Rate.
So then I realized why modern radios incorrectly use this term: End point adjustment is what we really need but there was no easy way to do that with the analog electronics of yesteryear. However, it's easy to throw a cheap potentiometer in there and simply adjust the gain for a similar effect. So apparently some marketing jackass wanted to dupe people into thinking his new radio had adjustable endpoints when really all it had was a lousy gain adjustment screw, and the rest is history. So now, like helicopters with ailerons and female plugs with male contacts, hobbyists are stuck with these confusing and incorrect terms.

Anyway, kudos to Futaba for ditching "EPA" and using proper terminology: "Limit Point" and "Travel Rate". And kudos to Futaba for allowing "Travel" and "Dual Rates" to multiply together with no limit other than the "Limit Point", which can always be reached. Airtronics does the exact same multiplication thing and you can crank up the numbers just as much but they have some infuriating hidden limit in there that still prevents the servo from being driven all the way to the "Limit" in certain cases when trim or mixes are involved.

Bottom line: When setting up travels, crank up the inner numbers, then set the true endpoint with the outer numbers, then reduce the inner numbers such that there is no deadband. Just that simple, truly permanent endpoints. And if you max out "travel" at 140 and still can't reach the limit you want, dual rates over 100% will get you there. Mixing or not.
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Old Aug 19, 2014, 08:19 PM
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Are_See_4_Me's Avatar
Joined Jan 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldhflyguy View Post
Earlier this year I lost a high performance glider that more or less disapeared out of sight and could not be found after a considerable search.

I plan to buy a Futaba 14SG and am considering purchasing an SBS-01G GPS Sensor.
I'm wondering if a Futaba SBS-01G GPS Sensor would be helpful in finding lost gliders after they have landed and are possibly out of radio range.

Through some online searching I have found that the SBS-01G GPS Sensor can give me distance, speed, and altitude. I haven't found anything specific about direction and whether or not these itiems remain on the display after the aircraft is down somewhere, especially if it is out of range.

If you have had experience with the sensor, please let me know how it would be useful for helping to locate downed RC planes.

Thanks for your help.

I have the SBS-01G GPS sensor mounted on my F450 quad. It comes useful for distance and altitude information that is displayed on the 14SG.

The sensor does not indicate direction (azimuth) of the aircraft. It does however display latitude and longitude from the DISTANCE information screen. It is nested within the 3rd screen of this display that you will find the the latitude and longitude coordinates of the GPS sensor.

Alternatively, if you have telemetry logging enabled the latitude and longitude is written at intervals specified by the end user. This information from the telemetry log file along with a hand held GPS could be beneficial in locating a downed craft.

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Old Aug 19, 2014, 08:42 PM
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United States, MO, Fenton
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vespa View Post
More endpoint musings... (Continued from here.)

I recently had an occassion to setup an Airtronics SD-10G and found the same completely wrong usage of the term "End Point". Airtronics properly uses the same "Limit" term as Futaba to refer to the true endpoint but they use the incorrect term "EPA" to refer to the gain. Here is an interesting quote from the Airtronics manual warning that end points are neither ends nor points:

So then I realized why modern radios incorrectly use this term: End point adjustment is what we really need but there was no easy way to do that with the analog electronics of yesteryear. However, it's easy to throw a cheap potentiometer in there and simply adjust the gain for a similar effect. So apparently some marketing jackass wanted to dupe people into thinking his new radio had adjustable endpoints when really all it had was a lousy gain adjustment screw, and the rest is history. So now, like helicopters with ailerons and female plugs with male contacts, hobbyists are stuck with these confusing and incorrect terms.

Anyway, kudos to Futaba for ditching "EPA" and using proper terminology: "Limit Point" and "Travel Rate". And kudos to Futaba for allowing "Travel" and "Dual Rates" to multiply together with no limit other than the "Limit Point", which can always be reached. Airtronics does the exact same multiplication thing and you can crank up the numbers just as much but they have some infuriating hidden limit in there that still prevents the servo from being driven all the way to the "Limit" in certain cases when trim or mixes are involved.

Bottom line: When setting up travels, crank up the inner numbers, then set the true endpoint with the outer numbers, then reduce the inner numbers such that there is no deadband. Just that simple, truly permanent endpoints. And if you max out "travel" at 140 and still can't reach the limit you want, dual rates over 100% will get you there. Mixing or not.
Thanks for that. Helped clarify things quite a bit.
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Old Aug 19, 2014, 09:20 PM
Some people call me Maurice
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Thousand Oaks, CA
Joined Mar 2004
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ldh, as of FW4.0 the last known gps coordinate remains visible in some deep menu somewhere even after link is lost (early firmwares erase the coordinate when link is lost). It's in a screwy non-standard minutes/seconds format that isn't easy to type into a phone so you need to make sure your phone can either handle or convert the format and that you know how to type it in (I think you have to type a space for it to work). You can also configure the 14SG to always log everything to SD card but you need a PC and Excel to find the coordinates.
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Old Aug 19, 2014, 10:35 PM
FlyGuy
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Batavia, IL, USA
Joined Oct 2007
323 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Are_See_4_Me View Post
I have the SBS-01G GPS sensor mounted on my F450 quad. It comes useful for distance and altitude information that is displayed on the 14SG.

The sensor does not indicate direction (azimuth) of the aircraft. It does however display latitude and longitude from the DISTANCE information screen. It is nested within the 3rd screen of this display that you will find the the latitude and longitude coordinates of the GPS sensor.

Alternatively, if you have telemetry logging enabled the latitude and longitude is written at intervals specified by the end user. This information from the telemetry log file along with a hand held GPS could be beneficial in locating a downed craft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vespa View Post
ldh, as of FW4.0 the last known gps coordinate remains visible in some deep menu somewhere even after link is lost (early firmwares erase the coordinate when link is lost). It's in a screwy non-standard minutes/seconds format that isn't easy to type into a phone so you need to make sure your phone can either handle or convert the format and that you know how to type it in (I think you have to type a space for it to work). You can also configure the 14SG to always log everything to SD card but you need a PC and Excel to find the coordinates.
Thanks guys.
This is all very interesting; but, I think it's beyond my abilities.
I was hoping for something a little more simple.
I appreciate your efforts to help me.
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Old Aug 21, 2014, 04:22 AM
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Joined May 2010
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Hello everybody.
I am thinking of buying the

"Parkzone SU-29MM BNF Basic + SAFE und AS3X 1120 mm"


Do you know if my 14SG is going to bind with the "Spektrum AR636" receiver that the plane already have installed or I will have problems with that ?

Does the 14SG supports Spektrum DSM2 / DSMX technology ?

Thank you for your help.
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Old Aug 21, 2014, 04:33 AM
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Raydee's Avatar
Western NY
Joined Jun 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1011 View Post
Hello everybody.
I am thinking of buying the

"Parkzone SU-29MM BNF Basic + SAFE und AS3X 1120 mm"


Do you know if my 14SG is going to bind with the "Spektrum AR636" receiver that the plane already have installed or I will have problems with that ?

Does the 14SG supports Spektrum DSM2 / DSMX technology ?

Thank you for your help.
No it doesn't but you can buy a module that will plug into the trainer port on the 14SG that will work.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1727230
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Old Aug 21, 2014, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Raydee View Post
No it doesn't but you can buy a module that will plug into the trainer port on the 14SG that will work.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1727230
Thank you Raydee
Maybe I should go for another bird.
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Old Aug 21, 2014, 08:24 AM
FlyGuy
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Batavia, IL, USA
Joined Oct 2007
323 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1011 View Post
Hello everybody.
I am thinking of buying the

"Parkzone SU-29MM BNF Basic + SAFE und AS3X 1120 mm"


Do you know if my 14SG is going to bind with the "Spektrum AR636" receiver that the plane already have installed or I will have problems with that ?

Does the 14SG supports Spektrum DSM2 / DSMX technology ?

Thank you for your help.
Hey All,
I've been wondering this for a while.
Can you just swap out the Spektrum receiver with a Futaba and go fly these BNF airplanes?
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Old Aug 21, 2014, 09:12 AM
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United States, MO, Fenton
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldhflyguy View Post
Hey All,
I've been wondering this for a while.
Can you just swap out the Spektrum receiver with a Futaba and go fly these BNF airplanes?
Absolutely. An airplane is an airplane. You will more than likely have more time in getting it set up. Also any proprietary features like SAFE or STAGILITY will leave with the Spektrum receiver.
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Old Aug 21, 2014, 09:54 AM
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United States, FL, Pembroke Pines
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldhflyguy View Post
Hey All,
I've been wondering this for a while.
Can you just swap out the Spektrum receiver with a Futaba and go fly these BNF airplanes?
A friend of mine at the field has one and pulled the Spektrum Receiver after flying it with his DX6i and the SAFE technology and inserted a Futaba receiver. He states that it flies better without the gyros, but then again that is his opinion.

- Birger
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Old Aug 21, 2014, 10:16 AM
FlyGuy
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Batavia, IL, USA
Joined Oct 2007
323 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdelapen View Post
A friend of mine at the field has one and pulled the Spektrum Receiver after flying it with his DX6i and the SAFE technology and inserted a Futaba receiver. He states that it flies better without the gyros, but then again that is his opinion.

- Birger
That's funny!

So the Spektrum servo connectors fit into the Futaba Rx and the electronics operating design of the Spektrum servos is like that of Futaba, Hitec, etc.?

I Thank both of you for your responses.
I always have an extra couple of Futaba Rx's and I've avoided trying some of the Bind and Fly planes because I didn't wan't to invest in another brand of Tx.

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Old Aug 21, 2014, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldhflyguy View Post
So the Spektrum servo connectors fit into the Futaba Rx and the electronics operating design of the Spektrum servos is like that of Futaba, Hitec, etc.?
Yes, they plugs fit and they servos work fine with a Futaba RX. There is no polarizing tab however so you need to make sure that you turn the plug the right way (Ground vs. Signal).

- Birger
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Old Aug 21, 2014, 06:22 PM
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The Northeast Kingdom, Vermont
Joined Jun 2004
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Yup, and it's actually easier to get it right the first time when plugging in that Spektrum servo into a Futaba (or Hitec) receiver, than it is plugging a Spektrum servo into a Spektrum, JR or Airtronics receiver
The slots in the Futaba and Hitec receiver cases give a clear indication where the signal wire (white or yellow) should be oriented. On those other brands, you have to look for the symbols (or assume the pins along the edge are the negative pins) that are printed on the case to be sure you're plugging them in the right way around.
Pete
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Old Aug 24, 2014, 10:53 PM
FlyGuy
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Batavia, IL, USA
Joined Oct 2007
323 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Are_See_4_Me View Post
I have the SBS-01G GPS sensor mounted on my F450 quad. It comes useful for distance and altitude information that is displayed on the 14SG.

The sensor does not indicate direction (azimuth) of the aircraft. It does however display latitude and longitude from the DISTANCE information screen. It is nested within the 3rd screen of this display that you will find the the latitude and longitude coordinates of the GPS sensor.

Alternatively, if you have telemetry logging enabled the latitude and longitude is written at intervals specified by the end user. This information from the telemetry log file along with a hand held GPS could be beneficial in locating a downed craft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vespa View Post
ldh, as of FW4.0 the last known gps coordinate remains visible in some deep menu somewhere even after link is lost (early firmwares erase the coordinate when link is lost). It's in a screwy non-standard minutes/seconds format that isn't easy to type into a phone so you need to make sure your phone can either handle or convert the format and that you know how to type it in (I think you have to type a space for it to work). You can also configure the 14SG to always log everything to SD card but you need a PC and Excel to find the coordinates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldhflyguy View Post
Thanks guys.
This is all very interesting; but, I think it's beyond my abilities.
I was hoping for something a little more simple.
I appreciate your efforts to help me.
Hey Guys,
Just thought I'd let you know I've installed a free app in my iPhone that allows me to type in latitude and longitude and I can walk right to that point with accuracy!
I used Map Quest to find the latititude and longitude of a sidewalk intersection near my home. I typed it into my iPhone app and used my iPhone to walk to that intersection with ease. I guess there's hope for me afterall!

I'll be sharing this information with the guys in my RC club. Our flying field is pretty much surrounded on three sides by a massive corn field.

Thanks again for helping me.

The name of the app is Goto Coordinates. It allows the coordinates to be in Degrees/Minutes/Seconds or Degrees (decimal) or Minutes (decimal).
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Last edited by ldhflyguy; Aug 24, 2014 at 10:57 PM. Reason: Name of the app: Goto Coordinates
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