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Old Aug 11, 2011, 02:07 AM
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Stan Rose's Avatar
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Mercury Matador

I've recently begun to take an interest in the Matador.

Having searched this forum and Google I can't find very much at all. Has anyone out there any recent experience of this model using modern lightweight radio and electric power?
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Old Aug 11, 2011, 04:51 AM
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DeeBee1's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Brighton
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The Matador was originally a free flight model for engines of around 1.5cc. Ben Buckle supplies plans and full kits of the Matador that show R/C installation.

There are threads/links that might be of interest to you here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=297642

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=871774

http://www.befa.ef-uk.net/ef-uk/issues/EF-UK-84.pdf

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/forum/view...php?f=8&t=1526
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Old Aug 11, 2011, 05:03 AM
Reduce the drama...
rick.benjamin's Avatar
USA, OR, Damascus
Joined Apr 2004
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kits and plans in your neighborhood
http://www.benbucklevintage.com/inde...products_id=89
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 12:01 AM
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Keremeos, BC Canada
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I built my Matador for freeflight, using a ME Heron for power: what a great model! I guess I got one of the last kits; I was sure it would never fly, using the Solarbo pine.... sorry, "balsa".... supplied, but fly it did. It was so forgiving that I would start the engine, and let the fetchermites launch and retrieve it, flight after flight, evening after evening, for a few years.

I see it flying just fine on a 300 brushed or equivalent with any gear you care to drop into that huge fuselage. Lots of fun in that package.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 01:17 AM
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Stan Rose's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Nottinghamshire
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Thank you to all that have responded to my initial request. I had already found much of what has been suggested, unfortunately whilst interesting, none of these sites reveal much useful information, such as AUW, power train used etc.

My initial musings lead me to believe that with modern components it should be perfectly feasable to build this model with rudder, elevator and throttle control, with an AUW of about 32 oz (907 gms) and assuming a p/w ratio of approx. 80 Watts per lb. that leads to a requirement for a power train that will produce approx. 160 Watts(max).

In order to keep the weight down and to make use of Li-Po's that I already have I would prefer to use a 2S battery pack. So what is needed is a motor/prop combination that will produce approx. 160 Watts(max) on 2S. Idealy this power train should weigh much the same as the PAW 1.49 diesel that was used in the original model, which the manufacturers website gives as 170 gms(5.99oz.)

The hunt is on!
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 03:07 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
South-west France
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Hi Stan

Have a look at the BRC motors offered in their "combo" sets, see http://www.brchobbies.co.uk/?page=sh...ory=31&start=0

I am using several of these, the 90 watt version in my Bantam, the 140 watt in my float equipped Tomboy both running on 2S, also in my little aerobatic model running on 3S in this case and also have one of the 300 watt lower Kv ones which is scheduled for a Black Magic. There is a 220 watt one in 950 and 1100 Kv versions which should meet your specs for 30 quid including suitable ESC, or 15 just for the motor.

All the ones I have are excellent, smooth and reliable.

Incidentally, I would be amazed if your Matador comes out as heavy as 32 ounces. My old free-flight one with a Frog 150 was less than 16 ounces, and I can't see how substituting electrics and adding light weight radio coule take it much over 20-24 ounces.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 04:45 AM
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Stan Rose's Avatar
United Kingdom, England, Nottinghamshire
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George,

Great minds think alike!

After writing the above post I went onto the BRC website and found the A2217-6T with 33Amp controller combo for 30.00. It is now winging it's way to me as we speak (so to speak). This motor will apparantley do 250Amps on 3S and 170 Amps on 2S, which seems to fit the bill and at 30 is very good value for money. I have not used this brand of motor before but am heartened by your comments about quality and perfomance.

I also note your comments about final weight, however past experience tends to show that my models always seem to come out fairly heavy as I belong to the "if in doubt make it stronger" school.

I am looking forward to doing some bench testing of the combo over the weekend. I will let you know what transpires.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 05:31 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
South-west France
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Hi Stan

Well, there's a coincidence! What I particularly like about the BRC motors is that they come complete with mount, prop driver and, especially useful, a data sheet showing the power output on various prop/battery combinations. All the testing I have done has produced figures very much in line with the information on the data sheets, so I think they are reliable. I'll be interested to hear how you like your motor.

I appreciate what you say about building in strength, I too am very concious of this and make changes where necessary (e.g. main spar of the Bantam 1/8" x1/4" spruce in lieu of 1/8" square balsa, extra top wing and tail spars in the Tomboy and Spartan and so on. However, my 60 inch Halfax Spartan, which is considerably bigger than the Matador, is built like a brick outhouse and is carrying a 300 watt plus Turnigy motor and a 3S 2200 lipo and still only weighs 36 ounces. Admittedly the lipo is mounted vertically directly behind the motor, so there is no nose ballast needed despite the short nose, and it is covered in tissue over mylar which is a light finishing system, but I still find it hard to imagine the smaller Matador only weighing 4 ounces less. Anyway, we will no doubt see when you build it!!

BTW, although propped down to under 250 watts, the Spartan is ballistic at full throttle with this set-up, OOS climb straight up at full throttle in about 40 seconds, so I imagine, even at 32 ounces, that the Matador will be fairly lively on 180 watts. Doesn't matter, I just keep off the loud pedal and fly for longer (45 minutes average)!

Cheers

George
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 06:07 AM
Sic itur ad Astra
sparks59's Avatar
United Arab Emirates, Abu Dhabi, Abu Dhabi
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Hi Stan,
The mention of the Matador brings many happy memories flooding back.

My brother had one back in the seventies, with an OS 10 easily powering it for free flight. When Santa brought a Swan digital 2 channel RC for Christmas, we converted the Matador to RC with rudder and engine control. It was a wonderfully forgiving and stable trainer. I have no idea of its weight, but can be sure that it would have been considerably heavier than a modern electric (or even IC) equivalent with modern lightweight RC gear installed.
Thanks for the memories.
sparks
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 07:02 AM
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Of course, the Matador would look/sound/smell much nicer with a PAW 09 in the front, even if it was R/C
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 08:01 AM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
Sundancer's Avatar
South-west France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeBee1 View Post
Of course, the Matador would look/sound/smell much nicer with a PAW 09 in the front, even if it was R/C
.....and there would be a heck of a lot less places where you could fly it!!
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancer View Post
.....and there would be a heck of a lot less places where you could fly it!!
Chicken !!! - what's a little noise?
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 01:24 PM
I like real wooden aeroplanes!
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South-west France
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Originally Posted by DeeBee1 View Post
Chicken !!! - what's a little noise?
A little noise is what lost us lots of flying fields over the last thirty years

Personally I am very happy to be able to fly 100 yards from the house - something that is only possible because of electrics. It is very rural here, but the sound of even a muffled 1.5 would carry to several houses and be enough to cause problems, I am sure.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 04:30 PM
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Northumberland, England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Rose View Post

My initial musings lead me to believe that with modern components it should be perfectly feasable to build this model with rudder, elevator and throttle control, with an AUW of about 32 oz (907 gms) and assuming a p/w ratio of approx. 80 Watts per lb. that leads to a requirement for a power train that will produce approx. 160 Watts(max).

In order to keep the weight down and to make use of Li-Po's that I already have I would prefer to use a 2S battery pack.
Stan, this may be too late to be much help but IMO 80W/lb is way too much power for a model like this. Also I'm not sure if you're choosing 2s because it's what you have to hand or if it's in order to keep the weight down but it certainly won't help reduce the weight.

For the last 2 years I've been flying my Veron Deacon using a Scorpion 2212/22 & 8x1050 Nimhs. For an AUW of 29.5oz power was more than adequate at 85W - 46W/lb. I originally chose Nimhs in an effort to maintain the cg without resorting to nose weight. However I always wanted it to use lipos so recently I changed to a slightly heavier Bluebird motor & 3s 1300 lipo. AUW has dropped to 27.5oz & power increased to 118W - 68W/lb. Climb is brisk to say the least & it only needs about 1/3 throttle to stay aloft at this power.
I opened a thread on the Deacon when I built it, I'll try & get around to updating it.
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Old Aug 13, 2011, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancer View Post
A little noise is what lost us lots of flying fields over the last thirty years

Personally I am very happy to be able to fly 100 yards from the house - something that is only possible because of electrics. It is very rural here, but the sound of even a muffled 1.5 would carry to several houses and be enough to cause problems, I am sure.
Well I totally agree, people need to be sensible and choose their flying location to suite the plane and the engine, but don't be too serious, it's supposed to be a fun hobby
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