New Products Flash Sale
Thread Tools
Old Jun 07, 2015, 07:53 PM
wz31857 is offline
Find More Posts by wz31857
WANNABEASLOPER
wz31857's Avatar
United States, CA, LA
Joined Mar 2015
24 Posts
Discussion
DS looks so easy

OK I just started flying RC again in January and discovered DS on the web. The one thing I have learned is how to repair Foamies and that I should have bought stock in Gorilla Glue before starting. I tried a Zagi and it was too light I used my Kazi and got close but it wanted to right itself which made it hard to stay perpendicular to the hill but I did get to see the effects of the shear layer /energy that awaits. I built a JW Classic took up to Parker today and wow what an aircraft .I never flew a 3 pound Foamie before but the same problem exists I can't maintain the required energy to come back up the hill on the lee side.Can some one maybe think back on when they started and help me along on what you are trying to achieve after coming off the lift side of the ridge running down the lee side and then returning to the ridge, I have come close where I fight my way back but most of the time I'm hiking and retrieving.I have watched all the hot shoe pilots like Aaron, Bruce T.( who I met at weaselfest )Spenser ect. so many times trying to catch onto the mistakes I am making.I have made 15 trips to Parker and never seen another soul so I have done it all on my own but I am at the point now where I am not progressing and any input would be much appreciated. I ordered another JW because I know I am going to need it I hope to have a reason to build the pro model for Weldon but time will tell
wz31857 is offline Find More Posts by wz31857
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jun 07, 2015, 08:09 PM
sll914 is online now
Find More Posts by sll914
Registered User
sll914's Avatar
United States, CA, Los Angeles
Joined Oct 2003
1,307 Posts
Im guessing its a matter of speed. You've likely seen a number of videos on RCG showing much greater speeds. At lower speeds, you have to fly smaller circles in order to maintain knife edge flight. Without seeing any videos, I would suggest trying smaller circuits. Look to complete the circuit in about 3-4 seconds.

You might find Vincent to work a little better than Parker with these onshore winds. PM me with your contact info and I'll try to meet up with you to get things rolling a little better...

-Spencer
sll914 is online now Find More Posts by sll914
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 07, 2015, 09:20 PM
Aerogance is online now
Find More Posts by Aerogance
Building is not a crime
Aerogance's Avatar
United States, CA, Ventura County
Joined Sep 2008
3,353 Posts
Wayne,

You have met the first challenge: guts. It takes guts to dive into the back, so good job. The next step is to dive with sufficient speed. Start out higher than you have been doing to make sure the plane has plenty of energy. Then just concern yourself with diving through shear, making a 180 degree turn, and flying back out through the shear onto the front. Make sure the plane is on knife edge as it goes through the shear! Do this as many times as it takes to get a feel for how the plane handles while in the shear. While in the shear, just fly straight (no elevator). Get this part down before worrying about making your first complete circle. Important: you cannot easily DS far behind the hill when learning so stay fairly close to the lip; if you try to bottom turn while in the shear it will tend to roll the plane out of the groove and skyward so use this indicator to know that you need to dive deeper; diving way too deep will cause the plane to bleed off speed and potentially not make it back out.

Once you are comfortable with diving in, turning, and pulling out you are ready to try your first lap. Again, just focus on completing one proper lap and pulling out. Reset, do it again. Eventually you will feel it is time to do a second lap. Keep working your lap count up until you can do 10 consecutive laps. Once you can do 10 laps in a row, you know enough to fly DS circles indefinitely. There are lots of things to learn regarding e-maneuvers and all the suck-down stuff, but that is the fun part of DS!

Aaron
Aerogance is online now Find More Posts by Aerogance
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 07, 2015, 09:58 PM
screamin' eagle is online now
Find More Posts by screamin' eagle
Confirmed Chronic
screamin' eagle's Avatar
Pacific Palisades, CA
Joined Jul 2004
9,461 Posts
Learning to DS at onshore Parker is tough business, I think. Not a whole lot of energy to work with and therefore not much margin for error.
screamin' eagle is online now Find More Posts by screamin' eagle
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 07, 2015, 10:27 PM
taurineman is offline
Find More Posts by taurineman
Registered User
taurineman's Avatar
Wellington, New Zealand
Joined Sep 2009
503 Posts
What i worked out, is don't make half-hearted lunges into the darkside. Go in HOT and get through and under the shear as fast a possible before you turn back. Too shallow an angle will prolong the time it takes you to get through the shear. It should give a brief little/slight wobble/yaw oscillation as it punches through while slowish (eg first lap or two) which lasts a second or so, watch out for it, and once it does it and settles (happens in less than a second or so), then turn back for the front.

First laps will tend to be smaller and shallower and closer to the lip than the laps you will cut as you pick up speed.
taurineman is offline Find More Posts by taurineman
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 07, 2015, 10:44 PM
Daemon is online now
Find More Posts by Daemon
Registered User
Daemon's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Joined Aug 2002
30,559 Posts
The mistake I see most folks new to DS make is not getting fully below the shear.
They consciously or subconsciously think the "safe" line is higher, right at or even above
the horizon. It's not. The safe line with DSing is below your feet, and it takes a real act of
will to drive deep. You can't just dip your tow in, or you'll get blown away.
Parker is one of the few places you can actually reliably DS above
the horizon at times but the wind still has to be straight on, and the backside wind still or light
return flow. Walk back to the back edge of the ridge and feel the air. If it's still
blowing from the front, or sideways, don't bother. If it's quiet or coming up gently
from the back, then almost *anything* should be DSable there.
Daemon is online now Find More Posts by Daemon
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 07, 2015, 10:58 PM
Aerogance is online now
Find More Posts by Aerogance
Building is not a crime
Aerogance's Avatar
United States, CA, Ventura County
Joined Sep 2008
3,353 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamin' eagle View Post
Learning to DS at onshore Parker is tough business, I think. Not a whole lot of energy to work with and therefore not much margin for error.
I agree. It is DSable when onshore but for some reason it is tough to find the groove even for people who have experience (points finger at himself).
Aerogance is online now Find More Posts by Aerogance
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 07, 2015, 11:01 PM
Daemon is online now
Find More Posts by Daemon
Registered User
Daemon's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Joined Aug 2002
30,559 Posts
Hmm.. I've flown there 2-3 times onshore, and it seemed just fine.
Or put another way, Parker on a marginal day is still better than almost anything we fly locally on a good day.
Maybe just lucked out with my timing.
Daemon is online now Find More Posts by Daemon
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 08, 2015, 01:45 PM
Bazzie is online now
Find More Posts by Bazzie
Registered User
New Zealand, Wellington, Paraparaumu
Joined May 2007
204 Posts
Parker has a very strong thermal base, I learnt to DS there and the shear layer could easily drop to the deck once a thermal has moved through and you're in the sink - that's a bad time to dive in. If you sense that a thermal has moved in, while you're in the upwards moving air, the shear layer tends to lift up above the top of the hill so you can get away with diving a little shallower. I've seen the experienced pilots fly very flat circles when that happens, and the energy is also massive at that point. When sink moves in the energy fades out big time. The top part of the of the hill used to be a little easier to DS as the back was a little steeper there, recovery may be a little more difficult though, if it all still looks the same - it was 14 yrs ago! That's if you walk further up from where you park.
Bazzie is online now Find More Posts by Bazzie
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 08, 2015, 03:18 PM
ALEX HEWSON is offline
Find More Posts by ALEX HEWSON
PB of 733kph
ALEX HEWSON's Avatar
Christchurch, New Zealand
Joined Jul 2005
6,097 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerogance View Post
Wayne,Make sure the plane is on knife edge as it goes through the shear!
Aaron
I THOROUGHLY disagree with doing this for you first few laps!!!

It only leads to disaster.

I teach a lot of guys to DS locally (in hope of finding more DS buiddies, most don't continue ) The best, absolutely BEST way is dive in as Aaron mentioned with heaps of speed, make sure you are below the horizon level and do a 180 degree turn back towards the front and LEVEL THE WINGS to go back through the shear. SO you do one lap at a time to start with to get the feel of the entry line and exit line as these are the two most important parts.

Enter High (but heading down into the back), exit lower closer towards the lip (closer, not ON it lol keep a 20ft altitude to start with) having wings level helps with this as when on your side, starting out awhen you are slow, You WILL get rolled over as you come back through the shear and into the top of the hill.

This all changes as you get more confident and start getting faster and want to string laps together, then you will start progressing to knife edge (banked on the 90) exits and re-entries

Start out easy and keep doing it as often as you, more stick time= more success
ALEX HEWSON is offline Find More Posts by ALEX HEWSON
RCG Plus Member
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 09, 2015, 12:04 PM
wz31857 is offline
Find More Posts by wz31857
WANNABEASLOPER
wz31857's Avatar
United States, CA, LA
Joined Mar 2015
24 Posts
First thank you to all who chimed in I wasn't expecting replies from the best of the best. Thanks for your suggestions and time everything that was thrown my way is basically what I had experienced on Sunday. It was the second time I flew Parker when it was a NE wind. I couldn't figure out why I was having so much trouble with my usual aircraft other than now I realize the wind was not straight in and obviously wind isn't always lift and it was blowing harder than I have flown so far .I wasn't expecting winds up to 30 but after seeing my wind meter I immediately decided this is JW Maiden day. That plane took off like an elevator for the 100th floor. The lift extended out 40 yards it was amazing. I am digesting all of your inputs and once again really appreciate it I am chomping at the bit to get back up there now and put to use all this valuable information. I'm sitting in my work truck in Thousand Oaks right now with the rain coming down so we'll see what the weekend brings. Kind of leaning towards checking out Vincent I have not been there yet. Sincerely Wayne:
wz31857 is offline Find More Posts by wz31857
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 09, 2015, 04:38 PM
1000MPH is offline
Find More Posts by 1000MPH
Objects in mirror are losing
1000MPH's Avatar
USA, NV, Reno
Joined May 2003
3,981 Posts
Come out to Weldon this weekend. I'll be there Fri and Sat. Bruce will probably be there too.
Only an extra 2 hours drive.
1000MPH is offline Find More Posts by 1000MPH
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 10, 2015, 10:19 AM
Aerogance is online now
Find More Posts by Aerogance
Building is not a crime
Aerogance's Avatar
United States, CA, Ventura County
Joined Sep 2008
3,353 Posts
SpeedsterDEN learned to ds at a marginal site with just info gleaned from the interwebs, I would like to hear his advice. I also learned solo with just the help of a few fuzzy videos, it was an interesting process because I didn't have a good plane for the task! A JW would have made the process much easier, so you have the plane part on lock down.
Aerogance is online now Find More Posts by Aerogance
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 10, 2015, 10:47 AM
wz31857 is offline
Find More Posts by wz31857
WANNABEASLOPER
wz31857's Avatar
United States, CA, LA
Joined Mar 2015
24 Posts
Yes and my JW UL just showed up yesterday thank you already started on it last night. I learned from my first JW how I am going to approach this build differently like don't tape the fuse until it's fitted to the wing after you put two rolls of tape on the wing. Also just received my jug of xylene so after taping the fuse I'll try my hand at thinned shoe goo. This weekend at Weldon sounds like a plan my JW Classic weighs in at 48ozs it's already beat up from parker ,replaced a stripped servo already. I am trying to locate exact directions to the site. I am out in the Randsburgh area a lot on dirt bikes so I am familiar with the area. Appreciate the invite I could probably do Sat.Friday I'll be slaving.
wz31857 is offline Find More Posts by wz31857
Reply With Quote
Old Jun 11, 2015, 11:07 AM
SpeedsterDEN is online now
Find More Posts by SpeedsterDEN
DS will change your life
SpeedsterDEN's Avatar
Danmark, Nordjylland, Sæby
Joined May 2010
1,902 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALEX HEWSON View Post
I THOROUGHLY disagree with doing this for you first few laps!!!

It only leads to disaster.

I teach a lot of guys to DS locally (in hope of finding more DS buiddies, most don't continue ) The best, absolutely BEST way is dive in as Aaron mentioned with heaps of speed, make sure you are below the horizon level and do a 180 degree turn back towards the front and LEVEL THE WINGS to go back through the shear. SO you do one lap at a time to start with to get the feel of the entry line and exit line as these are the two most important parts.

Enter High (but heading down into the back), exit lower closer towards the lip (closer, not ON it lol keep a 20ft altitude to start with) having wings level helps with this as when on your side, starting out awhen you are slow, You WILL get rolled over as you come back through the shear and into the top of the hill.

This all changes as you get more confident and start getting faster and want to string laps together, then you will start progressing to knife edge (banked on the 90) exits and re-entries

Start out easy and keep doing it as often as you, more stick time= more success
Just as I would have said it

Dsing for beginners. (1 min 41 sec)


DS for beginners. (1 min 50 sec)


My small DS sites are low (Under 20 meter) but have a Sharp top that make DS with small and light gliders possible.

But with Wind over around 22 knots there is no way to fly it due to turbolens just behind the ridge

For beginners here, the best way is to start with a Wind around 12 knots, and with a foam wing like a Wisel, just to try it, but a glider like the Arthobby Odyssey and other good gliders is more easy to control if you are a good pilot, and dont fly it into the ground

Standing on my small sites and flying under you, you must have 100% check on the distance to the glider or you will hit the ground like this
Normal he is the best pilot in my Club but was just a bit off here and was very surprised when it hit the ground:
Hard crash with 3 meter RC glider, (0 min 39 sec)


Almost all my sites are coast dunes with a nice steady Wind.
So not much Wind is neded to get it going, even with a small gfk glider:
Destiny, Light wind DS. (1 min 19 sec)


Good luck

Chers
Soren
SpeedsterDEN is online now Find More Posts by SpeedsterDEN
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion why does this logo look so familiar? logan5 Life, The Universe, and Politics 7 Apr 28, 2015 04:20 PM
Discussion Why do take off's on quads look so easy? denodan Multirotor Talk 18 Aug 26, 2012 01:22 AM
Discussion hand launch- it look so easy!(movie) Gilmenda Hand Launch 5 Aug 11, 2008 10:55 PM