New Products Flash Sale
Thread Tools
Old Apr 09, 2015, 10:50 AM
Knife Liddle is online now
Find More Posts by Knife Liddle
Lee Liddle
Knife Liddle's Avatar
Carrollton, Tx
Joined Dec 2006
9,169 Posts
Discussion
New EDF Speed Record

The latest EDF speed thread that I can find is 5 years old.

I'm thinking that the speed record for edf that has been verified by doppler or radar, two direction average is around 220mph, has a number like that even be verified.

The fast that I have seen good video of was Effux RC's Habu doing 208. Is that it?

If you know of something faster please post video along with the numbers.

Thanks, Lee

BTW, I'm about to attempt to rewrite that page, so this is part of the preparation. It helps to know the target number.
Knife Liddle is online now Find More Posts by Knife Liddle
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Apr 09, 2015, 10:58 AM
Knife Liddle is online now
Find More Posts by Knife Liddle
Lee Liddle
Knife Liddle's Avatar
Carrollton, Tx
Joined Dec 2006
9,169 Posts
I know that Jim will be here pretty soon with his normal BS, so I'll restate.... Verified Numbers only please.
Knife Liddle is online now Find More Posts by Knife Liddle
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 12:19 PM
gunradd is offline
Find More Posts by gunradd
KingtechUSA
gunradd's Avatar
United States, FL, Spring Hill
Joined Apr 2009
2,903 Posts
Good luck Lee!!

Yea Jim has gone at least 285 no no make that 290 or I mean 350 mph up wind ground speed!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knife Liddle View Post
I know that Jim will be here pretty soon with his normal BS, so I'll restate.... Verified Numbers only please.
gunradd is offline Find More Posts by gunradd
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 01:59 PM
Z06kal is online now
Find More Posts by Z06kal
DS JUNKY
DA VALLEY, CA
Joined Jun 2004
1,536 Posts
Did some poking around for you Knife. I think EDF speed claims should be held to the same standard as Dynamic Soaring world records as that seems to be quite a robust methodology. If you're looking for hard empirical proven data this means to me:

1.) High quality recently checked for calibration radar gun (not GPS or Pitot data which can actually be reliable at times but can be very inconsistent too and is easy to misapply and tamper with as it requires use of on board instruments). You can check a radar gun calibration in 5 seconds just hit the tuning fork and read the speed (these guns seem to keep calibration forever though, our CR1K has been man handled for years and it always reads exact to the 10th place decimal on the tuning fork.)

2.) Continuously shot video of the passes with no cuts and ideally the gun display should be in the frame of view of the video to show the passes registering on the gun. This radar LCD display is never on video for the big jet event speed runs but there is so much independent unbiased oversight at these events that I don't consider this a big deal and there is usually no reason to question the radar operator at these events.

3.) Passes must occur upwind and downwind within the same flight and ideally within 60 seconds on the video uncut!! This one is a MUST. Quoting down wind only passes is RIDICULOUS. On a big Santa Ana day at the basin I could easily put a 180mph Jet in the 220-230mph down wind range if I wanted to. That number may sound impressive but it's absolutely irrelevant to the actual performance of the Jet.

Here is my clocking TheTick's Spark on a gusty day:

208MPH CompARF Spark - 5700 WATTS - FAST RADIO CONTROL EDF RC JET ON RADAR (4 min 4 sec)


A lot of people would then come on here and claim they have a 200+ mph Spark. Sorry but this is a 190ish MPH Spark not actually a 208mph one or even a 200mph Spark.

4.) No diving at the gun and clocking the plane while in the dive. The plane should be more or less level as it comes at the gun. At these speeds we are only on the power for a short period of time and the planes need a dive to accelerate quickly as we are limited by line of sight (and the power systems usually can't run for more than 20 or 30 seconds full bore) so we can't actually give them the time they really need to get up to drag vs power so the dive is a necessary evil. However the drag at this speed is high and the planes quickly scrub any extra speed once they level off. On these high power setups I have actually seen EDF's accelerate past the gun and record a faster "going away" pass when they are actually on the climb out. It takes a lot of time to accelerate up to drag vs power.


5.) This one is totally cream on top. But ideally a credible (or multiple) witness(s) that is directly involved and are known, respected, and trusted member of the community to be there and can attest to there being no "funny business."

So anyway once you bring in these constraints you don't actually have access to that much data. So the fastest EDF that I was able to find (someone correct me if I'm wrong here) is Dustin Buescher's Electra at the 2010 E-Jets International event held in Ohio.

Here is the video:
E jets speed runs 2010 (7 min 15 sec)


His flight starts at 3:40 mark. 210mph upwind 227mph downwind (the announcer first says 200.27mph on the downwind pass but then later corrects himself and says 227mph). So that means 218.5mph averaged both ways. This is the fastest on video radar confirmed two way passes that I can find.

One of the things that would have been nice in this video is if Dustin didn't lift the throttle so quickly into the pass. This would have allowed us to Doppler his passes for independent verification. I still, however, find these numbers credible as they are in line with what we have seen with other Electras at similar power levels. Going by this http://www.bvmjets.com/pages/speed_runs.htm I'm assuming Dustin's Electra was in the 8.6kw range. Everyone knows the Electra is quite a slippery large EDF and that is the highest powered Electra I have heard of. I personally saw Doug Anderson's 14S 6.7kw TJ120 Electra at the 2010 Big Jolt run 216.7mph down 194.2 up for 205.45 average. It was an impressive beast. Plug 205.45mph@6.7kw into the drag calculator and 8.6kw predicts 223mph so the numbers work out just fine.

Now onto Jim's XPS Starfire. I saw this plane fly at the 2010 Big Jolt too and it ripped no doubt. It went to 223.9mph down wind (10-12mph wind gusting to 15) fairly late into the flight as he was having some issues flying it (maybe Jim can elaborate). He only clocked a 162mph pass up wind so we know it could have gone faster up wind, but we don't have that data so his average is "only" 192.95. If we take some liberal guesses here and assume Jim's Starfire had no issues that day and was running passes hot off the packs on that same day then a 230 down 210 up pass is probably a reasonable wild guess. This would have put him roughly on par with Dustin's Electra averaged both ways which isn't surprising as it's similar power on probably similarly slippery airplanes.

So basically, what I'm getting at, I think roughly 220mph averaged both ways is the current EDF record with 218.5mph being the precise record via evidence. If you want to have the "world's fastest" EDF I think these are the numbers to beat.
Z06kal is online now Find More Posts by Z06kal
Last edited by Z06kal; Apr 09, 2015 at 02:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 02:57 PM
Z06kal is online now
Find More Posts by Z06kal
DS JUNKY
DA VALLEY, CA
Joined Jun 2004
1,536 Posts
The thing you will find with these EDF's is that you sort of run into the "rocket equation." Things scale very quickly as you go up in power. You need more batteries, with a bigger motor, with a bigger ESC etc. The smaller air frames are no longer viable because they simply can't carry the load both weight wise and volume wise for say 10 or 15 or 20kw power system. So now you have a bigger plane, with a bigger cross sectional area, which has more drag which needs more power to go just as fast. However, because the drag doesn't scale up as fast as the power, bigger planes have the advantage to go faster just as bigger rockets do. But the plane's design should emphasize this. Gary has taken his little 80mm Habu close to the boundary of what it will carry. He is running a full 12S HV power system that belongs in a bigger jet in a small 70mm class Jet. This is probably very close to as fast as a 70mm class jet will go on current technology. I'm quite confident that Gary has not only the fastest 70mm class jet in the world but the fastest 80mm and smaller EDF in the world. It might even be faster than the fastest 90-100mm jet in the world because he put such a powerful system in such a small slippery airplane.

For perspective, he'll need to find a 20% increase in shaft power to break 220mph. I'm not sure how feasible that is. If he wants to break 230 he'll need to up his shaft power by 40%. I say shaft power because we know when these small motors are pushed to ever higher amps their efficiency starts to drop dramatically (which is why going up in cells is such a better way to do it if you have the controller). Also these small fans may be pushed too far out of their efficiency at these power levels or perhaps catastrophically fail due to the rpm. But the way i see it it probably takes 7kw to go 230+ in a Habu 32 and 10kw in a slippery Electra. I would venture to say it's much easier to put 10kw into something the size of an Electra than 7kw into a Habu. So that should give you some perspective on sizing a "world record setting" EDF. The bigger fans should be more efficient too because their Reynolds numbers scale exponentially with size.
Z06kal is online now Find More Posts by Z06kal
Last edited by Z06kal; Apr 09, 2015 at 03:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 03:09 PM
Knife Liddle is online now
Find More Posts by Knife Liddle
Lee Liddle
Knife Liddle's Avatar
Carrollton, Tx
Joined Dec 2006
9,169 Posts
That's all great stuff ZO. Also right in line with what I have been thinking. I'm building a nice slippery airframe capable of carrying a 15kw system, and have the power system ready to go too. So grab the microwave popcorn. It won't be a long wait.
Knife Liddle is online now Find More Posts by Knife Liddle
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 07:32 PM
JimDrew is online now
Find More Posts by JimDrew
Xtreme Power Systems
Lake Havasu, AZ
Joined Jun 2005
16,495 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z06kal View Post
Now onto Jim's XPS Starfire. I saw this plane fly at the 2010 Big Jolt too and it ripped no doubt. It went to 223.9mph down wind (10-12mph wind gusting to 15) fairly late into the flight as he was having some issues flying it (maybe Jim can elaborate). He only clocked a 162mph pass up wind so we know it could have gone faster up wind, but we don't have that data so his average is "only" 192.95. If we take some liberal guesses here and assume Jim's Starfire had no issues that day and was running passes hot off the packs on that same day then a 230 down 210 up pass is probably a reasonable wild guess. This would have put him roughly on par with Dustin's Electra averaged both ways which isn't surprising as it's similar power on probably similarly slippery airplanes.
Yeah, that Starfire was a handful to fly. I have retired it. It was built 20 years ago (in 2010), had analog servos and Nyrods connected to the elevator. It flys great on 12S, but 15S is a completely different story. It won't turn because the elevator blows flat above about 160MPH. I didn't do any real upwind passes because I couldn't go fast and still get it to turn. The 5th full throttle down wind pass was the 223.9MPH, and the packs were basically dead at the point. That setup was using 30C 5000mAh packs. I was pulling just under 160A peak, and it tapered off to about 150A - so, about 8500 watts. The new Starfire uses 18S with the PRO2 motor (the other one was the PRO motor) and will carry 8000mAh packs, so about 16.4Kw - just about double the power. The new Starfire also has main gear doors (the first one didn't) and RDS (rotary drive system). This means there will not be any exposed servo arms and linkages. The surface hinges will be live with the sliding bottom side (like DS gliders).

The category I established with Guinness World Book of Records, "Fastest electric ducted fan jet - RC" requires two (or more) parallel passes are made in opposite directions, with the data logged using a GPS module or radar. I think it's too dangerous to be standing out on the field with a radar gun. You really need GPS anyways to prove that the maximum 400' AGL was met. If your aircraft exceeds 400 feet during *any* part of the flight, the record attempt is disqualified. No more 2000 foot dives! You do not have to take off and land in the same location or do passes directly into and against the wind. For my testing, I always fly 90 degrees to the wind and that is how I will do it for the record setting event.

I established this category with Guinness just because of the issue with people diving from a dot in the sky - that's ridiculous. The first eJets event was great because the altitude was monitored, so everyone was the same, with no diving occurring.

burner.wmv (0 min 35 sec)


The most powerful electric plane to fly (as far as I can find) was our twin Victory. That was dual PRO2 motor setups on 15S with 6800mAh 65C packs... about 9500 watts per side. The elevator ripped off at some speed well above 200MPH, with about 2 seconds of full throttle engaged. We really have no idea how fast that plane would have gone. However, I can tell you with 100% certainty that the Victory airframe with a Graupner G160 turbine (38 pounds of thrust) does 215MPH flat and level (zero dive), and over 250MPH out of a mild dive, so that is one slippery airframe! We had 12 pounds more thrust with the electric version.

Attached are the official rules for the category that I established.
JimDrew is online now Find More Posts by JimDrew
RCG Plus Member
Last edited by JimDrew; Apr 09, 2015 at 08:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 10:09 PM
efflux RC is offline
Find More Posts by efflux RC
efflux RC's Avatar
United States, CA, Santa Clarita
Joined Aug 2009
9,302 Posts
Lee.

Interesting thread. Sub'd

Too bad it's in this forum. Jets this fast are elusive, no matter the size. When both my Habus come out play, they mix right in with the turbines.
Let hope it doesn't get derailed with BS banter, like. "shoulda, coulda, woulda "
An unsuccessful flight mean nothing. IMO



Just when I began sharing some info on the last jet, I find that my "little Habu" is right up there with the best of them.

...................................
Z06,

That was the "Awefully fast" Spark I asked about recently. Nice job.

All good and legit info regarding the other jets. Some jets didn't make legit flights. rules change from event to event, but If they went down or failed to run after the flight. Most events are "passes in both directions". some live events are one way only.
IMO. the REAL speed is avergaged from the best two, opposing runs.

Regarding "diving' Well. that's what the "other team" wanted to do in the Habu Speed Challenge thread. folks can't seem to make up their mind about this.


I refused to enter it for more than a year due to all the smack talk. Then when we finally made a video the early 12s flights, I was told we "fudged" the video due to the static that some how came during the transfer from camera to PC. After that I went out and bought a brand new $800 video camera.

I don't think I was at the "limit" of that air frame, and as you may know, since no one has surpassed me since Aug 1, 2014, I though I might give it shot myself.



While my previous speed attempts have been smaller(than 90mm) jets, the big ones easier to fly and have more room for "Stuff" .
Design the power system, then build a sleek air frame around it. I never have, and probably never will as it's too time consuming. Lee is good a whipping up fast air frames.
I'd like to build a really fast 120mm someday, but I've learned to tell folks the details of what I'm going to do......after I did it. Saves from a lot of BS.

Since were posting videos......... ....here's a few from me.

All handheld radar is with a calibrated Prospeed CR-1K.
All doppler is WavOSscope or Hyperdyne PC based Doppler. Online contest entries are dopplered by a 3rd (unbiased) party.

No GPS. or CELL PHONE radar.

1, Phase three F-16 speed contest. live, in person, one way passes with nearly zero wind. I was the 2nd place loser (thanks BOB..I'll never forget that!). @ 173 mph
the winner did 177 mph. That was 2008. I don't think anyone has beaten either of us to date. I still have one that does 160mph .
173 mph Phase 3, F 16 (0 min 44 sec)


.
.
.


2. The disputed test video (not an entry) of our early flight testing with the Habu.
Habu 32, 187 mph avg'd top speed - 206 mph fast pass (5 min 18 sec)

.
.
.


3. 208 mph Habu (Doppler upgraded ) with 2 downwind passes @ 217 mph.

Habu 32 @ 204 mph averaged TOP SPEED (5 min 37 sec)




.................................................. .................................................. ................



Jim,
Can you post a direct link to the Guinness, category that you created "Fastest electric ducted fan jet - RC" ?
I can't find it.
efflux RC is offline Find More Posts by efflux RC
Site Sponsor
Last edited by efflux RC; Apr 09, 2015 at 11:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 11:05 PM
AIR SALLY is online now
Find More Posts by AIR SALLY
deltas are cool
AIR SALLY's Avatar
Tehachapi ,CA.
Joined Apr 2006
21,852 Posts
hey I was third in that HP F-16 spped contest ...well there was only 3 planes mine only went 109
AIR SALLY is online now Find More Posts by AIR SALLY
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 11:23 PM
efflux RC is offline
Find More Posts by efflux RC
efflux RC's Avatar
United States, CA, Santa Clarita
Joined Aug 2009
9,302 Posts
Yeah ya were! Fun times.
Lots of guys in the online "race", but only us 3 for the showdown.


I meant to post this one too.
efflux RC is offline Find More Posts by efflux RC
Site Sponsor
Last edited by efflux RC; Apr 09, 2015 at 11:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 11:29 PM
pdawg is offline
Find More Posts by pdawg
Need 4 Speed!
pdawg's Avatar
United States, OH, Dayton
Joined Apr 2004
5,712 Posts
What is the new record? I doubt it!

Since the onset of the E-jets speed event its always been the same airframe fast and reliable enough to win….the BVM Electra. Dustin's Electra -X airframe (which is currently for sale) was a solid 220 mph airframe all day long. Rob Lynch has even recorded some unofficial passes in the 240 mph neighborhood. Actions speak louder than words…

BVM Electra doing 241 mph (4 min 3 sec)
pdawg is offline Find More Posts by pdawg
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Visiting Edwards AFB
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 11:45 PM
efflux RC is offline
Find More Posts by efflux RC
efflux RC's Avatar
United States, CA, Santa Clarita
Joined Aug 2009
9,302 Posts
Probably a 25-30 mph tailwind.

Still very nice. I need one!
efflux RC is offline Find More Posts by efflux RC
Site Sponsor
Latest blog entry: Updated blog Oct 2014
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2015, 11:52 PM
JimDrew is online now
Find More Posts by JimDrew
Xtreme Power Systems
Lake Havasu, AZ
Joined Jun 2005
16,495 Posts
Yeah, that video of Rob diving is an example of why I created the Guinness category with a 400' AGL limit. Gary, I am not sure there is a direct link. There has never been a record attempt since I established the category. We were going to use the twin Victory for setting the record, but that plane crashed. It's an expensive proposition to have someone from Guinness be on site to verify the record, so everything has to be really dialed in before spending thousands on getting a rep at the event, media coverage, witnesses, and other things required. We are in the process of building an all new flying facility here. So, in the fall I will likely setup the record attempt here at the new facility.
JimDrew is online now Find More Posts by JimDrew
RCG Plus Member
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10, 2015, 12:37 AM
Knife Liddle is online now
Find More Posts by Knife Liddle
Lee Liddle
Knife Liddle's Avatar
Carrollton, Tx
Joined Dec 2006
9,169 Posts
Gary, I just went with the Large EDF forum, because the fastest times have been with large size qualifying jets. It's all good here as far as I'm concerned.

Looks to me like anything over 225mph, done correctly, should qualify as the fastest edf.

It's fun to hear the stories and watch the videos. Hopefully I'll be adding a few new ones this month.
Knife Liddle is online now Find More Posts by Knife Liddle
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10, 2015, 12:49 AM
efflux RC is offline
Find More Posts by efflux RC
efflux RC's Avatar
United States, CA, Santa Clarita
Joined Aug 2009
9,302 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knife Liddle View Post
Gary, I just went with the Large EDF forum, because the fastest times have been with large size qualifying jets. It's all good here as far as I'm concerned.

Looks to me like anything over 225mph, done correctly, should qualify as the fastest edf.

It's fun to hear the stories and watch the videos. Hopefully I'll be adding a few new ones this month.
it's all good Lee. I think 225 (averaged) looks pretty close. I realize I may not get there with one, but If the new 'bu does 215 I'll be happy.
This is a great ""general" speed thread, and there's enough folks here with the proper understanding to keep it on the up-n-up.

Now wrap some glass around that power system.
efflux RC is offline Find More Posts by efflux RC
Site Sponsor
Latest blog entry: Updated blog Oct 2014
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Trying to break speed records. Looking for GPS help. BIGTACO FPV Racing 9 Apr 01, 2015 09:07 PM
Discussion new edf jet for speed Thomvh Electric Ducted Fan Jet Talk 1 Oct 25, 2014 07:56 AM
For Sale Brand new j-power / skyangel edf and speed controller Rooster433 Aircraft - Electric - Power Systems (FS/W) 0 May 03, 2014 10:46 PM
Question EDF Speed Record? ibcellist Electric Ducted Fan Jet Talk 255 Jun 02, 2010 09:37 AM
Cool New Speed Record?? legliderman Slope 21 Apr 01, 2005 11:22 PM