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Old Dec 08, 2012, 10:59 PM
Bob
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Hello Kevin and John,

The prospect of a Ranger has excited my interest as it would be a good companion for my Canterbury J #130. At this rate I doubt if you will have time to suffer from boredom.

Considering your experience with producing fittings, is there any chance that you also make Sails????

John,

Looks like you'll be travelling a lot more if the J's are successful. Fingers crossed.

I feel the makings for a new thread are not far away!

Regards,

Bob.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:04 AM
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Bob

I used to make sails back in the 80s (or rather my wife made them) - they were simple single panel sails that seemed to fill the bill back in those days at least to get people started.

I don't feel competant enough to make multi panel sails that seem to be required these days even for beginners. (except for Solings).

Apart from sails for the Footy and perhaps initially for the 36" boat I will probably get my sails made by one of the current "professional" sail makers and concentrate on what I can do.

Kevin
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 02:26 AM
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One for History.


The Latest IE12..

#02 Hull ID... AUS 02

Not sure if there are any photos of #1.. Other then the Hull Shell I posted a while back, which is quite possibly this Hull #2..


The IE12 is Motoring along & will soon replace all the Old EC12's in Australia..

The task is soon to be achieved in 2099 with handover of Hull #25 at Midnight Dec 31 2099 to mark the new beginnings..

Not sure the shape is quite right.. Must be the photo & the Hidden Keel-Bulb.. Have the decks become raised & Rounded ?


Cheers

John
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:15 AM
Bob
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Quote:
The Latest IE12..

#02 Hull ID... AUS 02

Not sure if there are any photos of #1.. Other then the Hull Shell I posted a while back, which is quite possibly this Hull #2..

Not sure the shape is quite right.. Must be the photo & the Hidden Keel-Bulb.. Have the decks become raised & Rounded ?

John,

Thanks for the photo; you must be in the OA good books!

This is why it's designated an IE12,,,,, because it's not an EC12,,,,, silly fellow...

Be good now,

Bob.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waboats View Post
One for History.


#02 Hull ID... AUS 02

The IE12 is Motoring along & will soon replace all the Old EC12's in Australia..

The task is soon to be achieved in 2099 with handover of Hull #25 at Midnight Dec 31 2099 to mark the new beginnings..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking50 View Post
John,

This is why it's designated an IE12,,,,, because it's not an EC12,...

Bob

I was trying to be good.

I was only half serious when I said Hull #25 would complete the takeover in 2099..

Last count there were less than 35 members of the OA & with a few from Overseas, this would leave a need for only a small number of boats. The vast majority don't even own an EC12 & as per the OA constip@tion cannot hold membership. The very same reason I gave up my very own OA Membership.. An Integrity thing,,,,

With so few numbers , production doesn't need to be ramped up... ..

It'll be a very long time before the IE12 gets off the ground, never mind into the water.. The Tragedy of having Only ONE MOULD & ONE AUTHORISED BUILDER..

And the ultimate Insult to Injury... NO, NOT ONE, AEC12OA Approved Measurer...


All takes time so 2099 might just be realistic.. In the meantime the antics of one particular individual has caused the EC12 to drop from a National Recognised Class to a State Class.

IMHO a better option as now the EC12 in the stronger States Like NSW & ACT can move ahead without the IE12 interloper.

IE12 Great Concept & Idea... Application was Up The Creek without a Paddle & in need of a dunny roll..


And yes you noticed the Decal Titles.. (I do hope they aren't molded into the Hull Gel Coat..)

As always An IE12 Is Not an EC12....

Can't even race an IE12 in NZL or USA..
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Last edited by waboats; Dec 10, 2012 at 04:08 AM.
Old Dec 10, 2012, 09:58 PM
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Hi All

Please no more complaints about the size and weight of an EC12.

This is a French model of the J boat Endeavour.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 10:46 PM
Silly Old Fart
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As requested my version of the history of the class in New Zealand.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 08:02 PM
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As per Ian's history PDF..

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainBit View Post


They made a mould using a second hand boat from an unknown origin and produced some hulls which were finished by some of the local sailors. This was of some concern to the elected governors of the class as it was evident that the hull shapes that we had in NZ were becoming diluted by fourth fifth and even sixth generation copies with all the faults becoming
compounded with each generation.

This is perhaps the biggest thing that confronts any Single Mould Origin class..

How Genuine is the Mould in current production & how close it it to the original..

Without the Master Mould to measure against this is purely a copy of a copy.. " becoming diluted by fourth fifth and even sixth generation copies with all the faults becoming compounded with each generation"

How many Master Moulds have been flopped from the Master?

The IE12 in Australia is merely another such Copy...

USA
Business Contact Products - Services Hull Manufacturers
  • Blue Crab Model Yachts
  • Chesapeake Performance Models
  • Ludwig Manufacturing
  • RMD Marine
  • Robin Yachts
Notice to buyers of hulls and boats:
New hulls are registered through the approved manufacturers above.
Unregistered hulls and boats cannot be registered without verification they were approved at the time of manufacture.
Hulls and boats that have never been registered with the Class from Dumas Products, Graves Little Boatyard and The Boat Shop cannot be registered.

In saying this I am continually concened that the Profile & measurement of the Keel area is ALWAYS AVOIDED & OVERLOOKED.

This is the Single most important area allowing the weight to be lowered within the boat & has an immediate effect on righting ability, tacking & heeling etc..

Wider at the base means ability to place weight lower..

If this is governed by the Mould & is supposedly a singular shape then all Keels should be identical & can & shoud be measured..

So what are the measurements.

From the original photo it appears to be a fairly strighforward measurement.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 08:53 PM
Bob
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Joined Aug 2010
223 Posts
Can anyone clarify the following questions:

USA

Business Contact Products - Services Hull Manufacturers

Blue Crab Model Yachts
Chesapeake Performance Models
Ludwig Manufacturing
RMD Marine
Robin Yachts

PLUS +++++++

New Zealand
Australia

???????

And the Copies keep coming; 7 that are known; how many in other Countries.

Are the Copies (as identified above) taken from the master or from a Sub Master??????

At what number of Copies from the USA Master or Sub Master, do you stop and start the process over??????

What is the production life expectancy (numbers) of the 7 known copies, before the owners are required to purchase yet another Copy????

Notice to buyers of hulls and boats:
New hulls are registered through the approved manufacturers above.
Unregistered hulls and boats cannot be registered without verification they were approved at the time of manufacture.
Hulls and boats that have never been registered with the Class from Dumas Products, Graves Little Boatyard and The Boat Shop cannot be registered. Why??????

Thanks,
Bob
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:21 PM
Silly Old Fart
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219 Posts
Can anyone clarify the following questions:
And the Copies keep coming; 7 that are known; how many in other Countries.
Sorry I do not know personally
Are the Copies (as identified above) taken from the master or from a Sub Master??????
My understanding is that there is a master PLUG. As each request for a mould is received a mould is made from that plug for the proposed builder.
At what number of Copies from the USA Master or Sub Master, do you stop and start the process over??????
Why should they stop? with a master plug there is little chance of a deterioration in the quality of the process.
What is the production life expectancy (numbers) of the 7 known copies, before the owners are required to purchase yet another Copy????
That would come down to each individual builder and their skill in making hulls without damaging their mould.

Notice to buyers of hulls and boats:
New hulls are registered through the approved manufacturers above.
Unregistered hulls and boats cannot be registered without verification they were approved at the time of manufacture.
Hulls and boats that have never been registered with the Class from Dumas Products, Graves Little Boatyard and The Boat Shop cannot be registered. Why??????
Because those makers were turning out boats which were not legal at the time so should not have the benefit of this grandfathering clause.
Thanks,
Bob


So let me stress that each of these makers moulds are not copies but originals made from a "solid"? plug that does not change with each use.
It is the closest that the class can come to being "ONE DESIGN" as is practicable.
I hope this goes some way toward answering some of your questions Bob.
I shall deal with John`s questions separately if I may.
Best wishes. Ian HB.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:27 PM
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EC-12M Manufacturers:
  • Buddy Black: 1968-1970
  • Reynolds Manufacturing: 1968-1983
  • Carr's Boatyard: 1970-1973
  • Model Yachts and Things: 1970-1978
  • Hartman Fiberglass R/C: 1971-Present
  • Leisure Products: 1972-1974
  • Treasure Tooling: 1975-1978
  • Cork Sails: 1976-1980
  • Dumas Products: 1976-2004
  • Hickman Marine: 1977-2005
  • Crump and Associates: 1977-1983
  • Bob's Boatyard: 1979-1981
  • Robin Yachts: 1980-1983, 1999-Present
  • William Schell: 1983-1988
  • Bill Low: 1987-1991
  • Puritan Yachts: 1992-1996
  • Ozmun Design: 1986-2000
  • Sailcraft: 1988-1995
  • Graves Little Boatyard: 1998- 2000
  • George Ribeiro Products: 1998- 2000
  • Brawner Boats: 1999-2005
  • RMD Marine: 2005-Present
  • Ludwig Enterprises: 2005-2009
  • Blue Crab Yachts: 2006-Present
  • CPM: 2010-Present

The effort for an IEC-12M class included the creation of a new primary hull plug with the intention future hulls be built to a tighter tolerance. Existing hulls were to be grandfathered into the new class.

In 1989 the IEC-12M technical committee selected the Hartman Fiberglass R/C plug as the basis of the new primary hull plug.

This being considered by the IEC-12M technical committee as the nearest existing hull to the original design the class is founded upon. This eventually became the plug the Puritan Yachts mold came from
Intersting NOTE: Puritan Yachts: 1992-1996 & The Graves Little Boatyard Mould if not previously registered cannnot be registered now.. I assume this is the current Hull Shape if it was approved for Manufacture, 1998 - 2000.. Could only be something wrong with the mould, otherwise questions need to be asked???



In 1992 the IYRU-MYRD placed the IEC-12M class on a two-year probation with intention to remove sanctioning unless the issues are resolved.

When efforts for an international organization stalled, Tom, as Puritan Yachts, submitted his hull to the AMYA and received approval after close scrutiny in 1992. Prior to approval, the gunwale had to be lowered 1/4" at station 20, but otherwise it is a middle-of-the-road yacht relative to AMYA-approved yachts. The newest AMYA-approved hull manufacturer, Puritan Yachts, was actually a chance result of efforts to make the EC-12M an international class. Unfortunately, after only producing nearly thirty hulls, Tom Jordan and Puritan Yachts ceased production.


The 1995 new standard class plug is based upon the middle-of-the-road Puritan.


In the US, we have locally and nationally continued to race under the AMYA class rule through it all.


  • (Just thought I would make the History at little easier to read by arranging in a timeline...)




Bob

I suppose what really concnerns me is that the current shape was being dictated in 1995..

15 Years later Australia with their small band of Interlopers now say we must Follow..


And the Original Plug only produced nearly 30 Hulls it ceased production in 1996..



ALL of the current Manufacturers appear to be post 2000...

No mentioon of what Plug was used as the Master..

Most likely a Copy of a Copy... Which brings with it the problems of manufacture..

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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:40 PM
Bob
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Joined Aug 2010
223 Posts
Hello Ian,

Firstly, many thanks for sharing your opinion regarding the NZ EC-12 History, I found it very illuminating and will add a copy to my EC12 History file.

Thanks also for the education regarding my questions. Your explanations were great and have clarified the situation very well. We never stop learning.

All the best,

Bob.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:26 AM
Bob
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Quote:
Originally posted by John,

15 Years later Australia with their small band of Interlopers now say we must Follow.
The AEC12OA executive are not in any position to dictate terms unless it's specific to their mould and subsequent production of what is called an IE12. They had their chance with the ARYA and various opportunities to compromise and unite with the Majority of ARYA EC12 Owners. Wasted opportunities!

ARYA history now reflects the effort and lengths numerous people went too in order to place the welfare of the EC12 Class first and foremost. This was Not acceptable to the OA executive and subsequently, their dogmatic attitude has resulted in loss of National Recognition. With that track record, why would anyone follow their example?

31 December 2012, the ARYA close their book on the class and hand over responsibility to those State and Territory councils that wish to accept and protect the future of the EC12 Class.

Sadly, the damage is done and the prospects for National recovery will be Long and Difficult; if at all!!!

Bob.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:09 AM
Silly Old Fart
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219 Posts
I think what we need here is one of the Americans with background knowledge to help us with the questions raised. Although I was on the IYRU- RSD IEC12M committee as the NZL representative I do not remember some of the stuff that went on at the time. It is a bugger getting old.
Regardless it is the future we must look forward too and I feel the loss of National status in Australia is not that bigger deal. In New Zealand we have never had the support of the NZRYA and so the owners association has always kept their own register and run their own affairs. As the class in AUS is not in all states perhaps it is a good thing that the owners association should manage the class and be free of interstate politics.
I must confess I am not up to speed on all the ho-ha that has been going on with the class there and which seems to generate so much steam on this forum. Quite frankly I don`t think most of those here are interested in who whacked who with their handbag first but are happy to assist the future growth of the class if possible. Forget national and concentrate on local recovery. If it looks like a 12 and sails like a 12 then it is a 12. "Run wot ya brung"
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:22 AM
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Ian
Reading your potted history of the EC12 in NZ reminded me of the problems in getting you that first boat.

Max got in touch and asked me to make the hull & deck at fairly short notice and send it off to Adelaide (I think) so that this bloke from NZ could compete in the Australian championships. The lead was poured directly into the hull and the deck had only just been bonded on when I had to race around and build a box to send it in. The only way to get it to Adelaide in time was to send it by air so we drove it up to Newcastle to drop it off to Ansett and I think we only made it by a few minutes (and it cost quite a few bob as it was fully leaded and in a wooden box).
There was a fair bit of luck in getting the boat made and off to Adelaide and to be honest I wasn't very happy with the quality due to the rush and was very surprised when Max told me it had gone so well.
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