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Old Nov 29, 2011, 01:48 PM
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The recommended motor weighs about 40 grams, does about 180 watts and 1500kv.
Find a Rimfire (or any brushless motor) close to those statistics and I'm sure you will be fine.
The little red motor, works fine in this application, but I'm sure this airframe will tolerate a wide variety of motor choices.

I've seen one flown with a park 480 motor on it, more motor than is needed but flies just fine.
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Old Nov 29, 2011, 03:12 PM
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Lee:

This was just the critter I was looking for. My boy is having a tough time transitioning from simulator to our HZ UM Champ...it is too small and not good enough in wind to fly it much.

So, I bought one of the few 3-ch EPP trainer ARFs (Techone Funfly EPP) and I finally have it ready to go...after having to tear it apart and re-build it. Many lessons learned, first of which is a disassembled kit beats a poorly assembled ARF every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

If it doesn't survive, I'll pick up the Pelican and transfer over my electronics, as they are close enough.
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Old Nov 29, 2011, 11:51 PM
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great for beginers

I have been trying to learn to fly for 3 - 4 years. I have spent over $400 in UM planes. I could fly the champ fine but went through two um-t-28s Quick. I bought a pelican and albatross. I have had a blast. Only crashed once, no damage. I have built confidence because of the air time I get with this
Great plane. I would put a plug in for a 4 Chanel EPP aileron plane, just for kicks. What do ya think?
I would buy one in a heartbeat.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 08:09 AM
Lee
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Several flyers have been amazed that the green Albatross weighs over 30 oz. Notice how slow it still flies even with the load. It can handle the wind is because it can handle the higher flying weight. Most of the flying is at half throttle (or less) giving long flight times.

You can put ailerons on it if you like. I have one that has one small servo on each side but it is one of the beta test tailless versions. The ailerons are not as sensitive as the rudder is.

Lighting them up for night flying will be the big treat. Night flying is as easy as day flying if you know where the wires and trees are.

Lee.

Albatross Quiet for local parks 11-26-11 (4 min 25 sec)




.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 10:02 AM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
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How did I miss this thread? It's been around for almost a month and I hadn't taken a peek!

Lee, these planes are potential Champ killers. I can't get on your site right now, so don't know pricing details or anything about configuration.

Maybe I'm not telling you anything, but let me trot out the AEAJR list of qualifications for a an unassisted newbie learner plane.

1. The plane must be stable and slow flying enough that a newbie can have a chance of success. They have to be durable enough to survive foreseeable newbie mistakes.

Yikes! By far, these are the best planes anywhere for that. They fly as well (maybe BETTER!) than my beloved Slow Stick, but with extreme durability. They make the Champ look bad in flying qualities and durability.

2. The planes must be true RTF planes. The unassisted newbie has no building skills. His knowledge of hooking up and tuning radios and control surfaces is zero. He needs a plane that can come out of the box, charge it up and fly.

Your planes have never been this, as your market has always been experienced people. This is really different. I don't know how much business you're looking to do, but if you could do a total RTF for under $300 you'd set the world on fire. Of course you could also outstrip your ability to provide that level of demand in quality airplanes.

But think about this: if you capture the newbie, getting him to spend what he needs to be be happy with the quality, you WILL have a happy customer who will buy from you forever. How much is that worth? Some of your flying wings are a logical next step, as you know well.

3. The company needs to sell a full line of replacement parts guaranteed to work on the plane, airframe components, receiver, servos, motor, ESC, hardware, the whole shooting match. Someone should be able to buy parts and then build the plane from the parts. Of course you want to make sure that would cost more than the assembled plane. But the parts inventory is for the peace of mind for a newbie who can't pick a motor or speed control, resolve any necessary mounting issues, etc. He shouldn't have to deal with CG issues resulting from using different components if he doesn't feel qualified. Yeah, you really do have to hold their hand that much but it's worth it. They need to be able to go to their plane on your website and just order a motor. Peace of mind is what it's all about. Keeping their first plane in the air is keeping them in the hobby and determining where their future money will be spent.

4. A thread or two on major Internet RC forums for, by and about newbies learning to fly on these specific airplanes. These planes are so good if you follow through on all the hand-holding steps you won't be able to STOP that from happening.

Lee, it's a value thing. We have a bunch of newbies out there who think they're looking for the cheapest entry cost into the hobby. What they don't know and we have to tell them is that the important thing is what it will cost them to STAY in the hobby.

When they buy the Bixler and need components, they find that they have bought a disposable aircraft. Most newbies will be so intimidated at that point that they'll just quit the hobby. So what have they saved? They either buy a whole new airframe or quit.

With the company owner on RCGroups, a bunch of happy newbies flying the heck out of these things and posting about it, getting people to spend what's necessary to have a great time for a long time in a fantastic hobby should be a piece of cake! Cover AEAJR's points and you can't help but blast the unassisted newbie plane market wide open.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 11:14 AM
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Rockin Robbins-
You have very clearly outlined some of the challenges involved in getting newbies on board and being able to participate and stay in the hobby.
PlaneInsaneRC is offering "Whole Enchilida" kits for some of the other Crash Test Hobby planes.
Stay tuned to see if he begins to kit the Pelican and Albatross.

When I was starting out, the amount of information that I seemed to need was overwhelming. I scoured the internet looking for anyplace that offered an RTF packages for the Slow Stick that would take away the guesswork. Eventually I found PlaneInsaneRC. Since then I have met Ryan and fly with him pretty often. PlaneInsaneRC has excellent customer service and has received the TeamJetPackNinja seal of approval.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 12:54 PM
Lee
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We made two building videos that go along with the written instructions an the building couldn't be easier. These building videos are simple enough we have had teenagers (and even engineering students ) able to follow it.

I tell new flyers that a person is old enough to fly when he can build his own airplane. If he can't built it he can't fix it and doesn't understand it well enough to make adjustments if it isn't flying well. If a new flyer doesn't have a basic understanding of what is going on he will never control it.

I have seen many flyers over the last 40 years that wreck their planes and never fly again. What happens to the "box flyer" who opens the box crashes the plane and now stands looking at the pieces? If he didn't build it does he know how to fix it?

Ready to fly planes don't offer the radios I would recommend for someone serious about the hobby. How many DX5s or knock off radios have people tried to sell after they get them in a kit with a plane? How many flyers do I know who fly ready to fly airplanes for ever in the hobby? .... NONE. Sooner or later they have to learn to set up the radios for the higher skill level planes and planes and these planes are about as simple as any to learn on.

Building is as much about learning about planes as it is about flying. In my mind I know what and why the plane is doing what it is doing when I move the sticks a certain way.

These planes build quick and easy. Parts fit together easily and the planes are the most durable trainers I know of.

Building demo #1 for Albatross and Pelican by Crashtesthobby (8 min 36 sec)


Building demo #2 for Albatross and Pelican by Crashtesthobby (7 min 35 sec)
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 02:24 PM
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Lee:

Put simply, were it not for the RTF HZ UM Champ, cheesy controller & all, I would like as not have never gotten in the hobby(0). I suspect that the number of folks getting into flying nowadays via the RTF/DIY route dwarf those entering via RC flight clubs(1).

[I've read CTH's "Getting Started" and found it helpful, but quite a bit didn't apply to my case since I went the UM RTF/BNF route. I am now moving into the park flyer-sized ARF/kit space, though.]

When you crash your RTF? You learn how to fix it, if you have anything more than casual interest. If you don't have that interest, you never would have bought something like a Pelican/Albatross KIT in the first place. Though it is not EPP, the HZUM Champ can take a good licking and is pretty simple to fix. Plus, there is a treasure trove of posts here at RCG regarding the Champ.

It is about an entry ramp, lowering the barriers to entry. Today I own a Spektrum DX6i because it was the natural progression from the Champ Tx and the whole BNF UM route into the hobby that Horizon has set up...which all play in the Spektrum 2.4 arena.

That said, who says you want to play in the complete beginner arena? Rockin Robbins describes most the requirements to snare/sell a RTF/DIY total beginner. He is correct that if all those strings were knit together, the notional "Pelican/Albatross RTF" would qualitatively beat the HZUM Champ like a red-headed step-child(2).

Doesn't mean you have to.

What you have here at the moment with the Pelican/Albatross is likely the best plane for someone who already knows their way around RC flight to use to help others into the hobby. That's not chopped liver.



(0) Also, RealFlight 5.5.

(1) And we likely are as dirty, smelly, and uncouth to the RC clubbers as the German barbarians were to the Romans. Some of us may eventually take baths and learn to speak Latin RC clubber. Many will be content to fly in local parks in perpetuity (think: RCPowers).

(2) If you tossed in decent software models for the various flight sims (RF, Phoenix, etc), you'd would have the soup-to-nuts solution.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 02:51 PM
Lee
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The local hobby shop tells me that they have a lot of people who want everything in one box. I don't think the new flyer gets the best set up this way or the most hours of flying with this set up but it does get them going.

I know where you are coming from but we have a product that is going to be great for beginners.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 03:06 PM
buyer of the farm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
The local hobby shop tells me that they have a lot of people who want everything in one box. I don't think the new flyer gets the best set up this way or the most hours of flying with this set up but it does get them going.

I know where you are coming from but we have a product that is going to be great for beginners.
Lee, I agree with you completely, but that won't change the way people buy. Even as I outline above, looking to peek under the $300 mark for a one box deal will involve educating the newbies that they are not saving money by buying a Champ.

However it WOULD be giving what the unassisted newbie absolutely will need in order to get involved in RC: an RTF setup. A kit is okay if you have help from an experienced builder/flier, but the unassisted newbie just isn't going to build.

I don't think offering a DX5e would be such a lousy idea. Mine is better than my early 80's Futabe FP7FGK was and that was a whiz bang radio of the time. I agree with you on anything less than that.

The biggest advantage of RTF is that the newbie can be SURE that the plane knows how to fly. There are just too many ways, even with the videos, that you can build the things wrong. Just look at the comments for your You Tube videos and you know I'm right. RTF is unavoidable with the market we have. These newbies have never had our experience building free flight planes. They are ingenious enough to make a multitude of unanticipated mistakes. Releasing an RTF version for the unassisted newbies keeps YOU in control of how their plane flies.

Yup, you're right. If they don't know how to build, they won't know how to repair. But THEY would say if you don't know how to repair and tune, you can't build. Both viewpoints have some validity, but the RTF overcomes the terror of building syndrome and gets them flying. THEN when they have to repair, they have their great flying experiences to motivate them. That's a huge factor.

Getting "the best" setup isn't at issue here. It's what is required to engage new people and their wallets into our hobby. New wallets means more money for you. Once they have that first RTF, THEN they're candidates for the kit planes and the rest of your line. You'd be their default choice for any future planes after they crashed their beginner plane a couple of times, picked it up, blew off the dust and tossed it back in the air. I think the unassisted newbie market is more important than hobby companies have realized, as evidenced by the popularity of the Champ and Super Cub. After all, as you say, they are NOT the greatest possible setup by a wide margin! The only explanation for their success is that they meet the needs of a lot more unassisted newbies than we thought were likely to exist.

Your product is bulletproof: miles ahead of anything on the market. But the Champ and Super Cub will eat your lunch until you understand the reason for their success: RTF plus full parts availability plus incredible service for a pretty high price. With these incredible planes, you deserve to eat THEIR lunch.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 03:15 PM
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The wing chord on the 48" Albatross wing is the same as Slow Stick. I've flown my Slow Stick quite a bit with the Albatross wing (no other modifications other than a few clicks of trim) it penetrates wind well, glides well, holds inverted and has a responsive RET roll. I have some pictures somewhere but don't have any in flight video. Let me see, where are those pictures?
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 03:26 PM
buyer of the farm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetpackninja View Post
Rockin Robbins-
You have very clearly outlined some of the challenges involved in getting newbies on board and being able to participate and stay in the hobby.
PlaneInsaneRC is offering "Whole Enchilida" kits for some of the other Crash Test Hobby planes.
Stay tuned to see if he begins to kit the Pelican and Albatross.
That could rope in some of the unassisted newbies! It still leaves them with a kit, but the Easy Star RTF needs assembly and many have started with it. At least by supplying all components you have control of where the CG ends up and can premark the fuselage for wing position, servo, radio, battery and ESC positions.

Hey, if a guy has never flown a free flight plane, has never flown an RC plane he can find a thousand ways to build the most foolproof plane so it won't fly. Every variable you can eliminate makes a huge impact on his success and future spending on the RC hobby. If you hold his hand through the steep part of the learning curve he will look to you for solutions as long as he's in the hobby. That's money in the bank the right way. True profit comes from identifying unmet needs, meeting them and having buyers hand you their cash with big smiles on their faces before, during and after the transaction.
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Old Nov 30, 2011, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetpackninja View Post
The wing chord on the 48" Albatross wing is the same as Slow Stick. I've flown my Slow Stick quite a bit with the Albatross wing (no other modifications other than a few clicks of trim) it penetrates wind well, glides well, holds inverted and has a responsive RET roll. I have some pictures somewhere but don't have any in flight video. Let me see, where are those pictures?
Sorry- can't seem to find any in flight pictures. I'm sure there are some out there. Maybe even some video? I flew this configuration quite a bit at our last sWARm. The Alula guys tried to knock it down with their gliders for a good little while as I flew patterns over their launch point. Good fun!
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 12:45 PM
buyer of the farm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetpackninja View Post
The wing chord on the 48" Albatross wing is the same as Slow Stick. I've flown my Slow Stick quite a bit with the Albatross wing (no other modifications other than a few clicks of trim) it penetrates wind well, glides well, holds inverted and has a responsive RET roll. I have some pictures somewhere but don't have any in flight video. Let me see, where are those pictures?
Whoa! Ho! Ho! Yer talking my language: Slow Stick!!! Lee, ever consider selling wing kits? Jetpackninja, you have the stock wing mounts or are you using two front or two back wing mounts on that SS to lower the incidence?

Back to our regularly scheduled program: the www.CrashTestHobby.com Albatross and Pelican. I hate it when people hijack a great thread. This is one that deserves some customers.
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Old Dec 01, 2011, 01:00 PM
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Are there any planes for a 4ch model?
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