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Old Apr 27, 2015, 06:01 AM
Ron van Sommeren is offline
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homo ludens modellisticus
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Idea
cobalt-iron lamination, new/other statordesign

By Christian Lucas

www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2032381&page=17&pp=10#post3144017 7
drawings
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2032381&page=19&pp=10#post3145634 7

Cobalt-iron, 0.1mm, old style stator
www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?p=6244653#post6244653

Vriendelijke groeten Ron
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Old Apr 28, 2015, 02:18 AM
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there are 3 completely different things mixed by mr. lucas.

first:
cobalt iron.
it provides a higher possibility to lead fthe magnetic flux, but also better leading of the eddy currents compared to silicon iron.
to work with it, is almost impossible for a normel motorwinder.
to use its special properties, someone needs a lot of special technology.
a special oven with hydrogenic athmosphere and with the possibility to go a special temperature profile is needed to reglow the plates. this is an absolutely need to get the wanted properties and to make the stamped or lasered cobalt iron plates usabel to build a statorpackage.
in building the package the plates must be insulated, because of there is normally no insulation between them.
and then you must get a really high stacking density.
all this together almost impossible for a normal builder.

the easiest way to use the better flux of cobalt iron alloy, is to reduce the iron square and bring more amp-leading copper into the bigger slot.

second:
the shown shape.
its a patent from 1990th.
someone should ask himself about it: if it is soooo superior to normal, why it isn't used in every motor more than 20 years later???

then try to scale it down to the normally used in speedplanes 45mm statordiameter.
also have a look how many room you still have to bring enough copper for 200Amps in it and which n spec would result.
to use hydraulic pressed preproduced coils is also impossible for a motorbuilder - almost noone (also me) has this technology at home.

real use of this shape:
I only know 2 examples for this shape in buyable model motors.
actro C-6 with only "normal" results in power and efficiency.
and the very high expensive big lehner motor. I don't know, how good it really is - I never meassured it.
but it isn't imo also not made with cobalt-iron alloy plates.
also just thisone is much to big and heavy to use it into a speedplane.
the third motor using this shape was an experimental machine build by dieter melber, what also gave only normal results.

third:
the last thing I had to have a look on, are the needed motor properties for a rule conform speed model.
such as right diameter for the fuselage, right weight, right power (good for 200A for 1min) and so on.
this all I just can reach with the standard design with good efficiency.
the possible win by using expensive material and high technology is to small in real world.

a good made normal designed outrunner reaches nowadays up to 92% eff max and 86% under high load (200A).
the best ironless inrunners for the same weight, size and power reach about 95% and 90% under real load (wenn the copper reaches the working temperature after some seconds without water cooling. and you will need a gear, to come to the right rpm.
the special outrunner you should find in between these datas.
this win isn't worth the very big effort for me personally.
nobody feels 3-5% difference in power in flight. there are enough other places, where are still much bigger losses........
I see it only as a "nice to have"- and of course it brings also a mental win .
naturally I can only speak for me.
may be, anotherone will have another point of view.

the reason for this thread:
mr. lucas wasn't so fair to accept my advise to use another place for this discussion than my thread about my speedmodels and their flights to come around the corner once again "his" old ideas about motors from old patents once again, as he did it for many years everywhere.
all the written we discussed just many times into the closed powercroco forum, but now he seems to need a new stage to do it again.
so I only had the last possibility to to end it - to close this thread:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2032381

for me it is maximum pestering to hear this old, old fairytail about the "super motor" everywhere and since years again and again and again and never to get an evidence that it works also in small model motor size.
the only thing, what is absent in the discussion is btw. the also everywhere used halbach array configuration - may be, he forgot it to mention this time :?


just my 2 cents.
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Old Apr 28, 2015, 04:12 AM
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Agree. Interesting design and technology, but where are these motors on rc planes?
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Old Apr 28, 2015, 03:37 PM
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Hi,
first i do not mix . This is a clear question that belong only to Mr.Okon as ist was only a prototyp motor in his speedplane .See all togethter ,speedplane and motor are one spezial here.
Wy are so les motor with this typ of winding out . Many motorcompanys don´t know from this typ and in China it is cheaper do wind by human than by a prefabricatet coil from a automated device. Industrie has much moore of this and other high copperfilling ways they use and this high powerdens motordesignes are not everywear needed so a high powerpeek motor like need in speedplanes is not what most applications want.But if you go for highest level and got such high grade material it is a allowed question to aske wy not going the way of the highest powerdens motordesign ? For such motor you need big ironpas for the statordesign and high copperfilling . Both offer this designs ,this old design from 1990 also offers e better position of the related coils as they see magnetic flux from the magnets in time.This cann be done also with a 12 slot design and disturbed winding if liked.
And as the thin 0,1mm cobalt iron plates have less fluxrelated loss a higher pol count rotor can be used leading in less winding per coil = lower resistance. All on the whole lead in a smaller ,lighter ,powedenser motordesign with the same most better efficancy .
To do this kind of coilmaking need some easy tools . Most have a bench vise and mr.okon has also a lath and a milling maschine .From my owen experince i know how to make this tools with basic handy tool every modelbuilder has.
It is easy to understand that if a manufactor use this design he can offer highpowerdens motor from a standard line and custom tuner are out ,swapshoop will not running spezial if you need speedplanes and parts. So there is no interest to show this the manufactor. By the way ,we discused statordesign at the powercrocoforum for normal siliconsteel plates and for comon use a hammerhead design has better all over result ,peekpower is not the important factor. But here, this is a prototyp engine only a hand full of pilots will get one . In Ralphs sight these are old designs , but real the motors he build are tousend times older . The are from the time when we run with brushes . My old slotracer motors have a newer shape . The reason wy these design is not often used for modelmotors is that most manufactor use there old brushmotor wirdeing maschines that can do the job . They make a good win as they have not to use new tools and manufactoring lines . All this historic wast is producing on and on and .... .
As Scorpion contact Ralph ,i hopped that he will be rise them to higher level as Scorpion understand how important thin plates from higher frequenz materiial are for better motors and they are open for every new crazy toughts. I am in an other position as i worke close with high end motor designers knowing of designs that are not allowed for me to show and i have many very close friends here in Europe producing modelmotors and i want not to force to much that will destroy what they have life for . No i help my friends to make better motors . This is a very long and havy way need expensiv investment .Visite the Coil Winding Expo far and see what are new manufactoring ways.i bet you will wonder about . One of my friends produce high powerlevel motorss for robots at the DLR Germany . They wind the coil on a linear line stator that is after finishing coilwinding rolled to a round stator and all the copper is pressed toghether to reach a very high copperfilling . Same with maggnetsystems and Stator shaping and assambling . Aske Mr.Dyson about his new vacuumcleaner motor . It is full automated produced and all other mannufactor are clapping hands for his innovation.
thanks for reading as it is not easy for my to say what i want to say in your language
so long
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Old Apr 28, 2015, 04:01 PM
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little story from old designs,
do you know that the reason for the me to build the first high pole outrunner was a competition F3B hold in Munich where i met Norbert Hübner . We discused his geard motor and i bet with Hans Lehner that i can build a motor that can turn same prop with no gear direkt driven and less waight. I won and than i start sending the datapaper to all manufacors of electric modelmotors . no one want this motordesign and so i start the artikel High power and torqee modelmotor to selfbuild . I think it is the most used modelmotordesign these days . i never want mony not a peny for this. Please if you like spend some mony for the people in Nepal. Many Thanks
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Old Apr 28, 2015, 04:12 PM
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I only can say once again:

what I do is good enough for my use.
I cannot see the big benefit in your "super motor" for my needs.
pls. accept this now and try to teach anotherone!
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Old Apr 28, 2015, 04:27 PM
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double post, pls. delete
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Old Apr 28, 2015, 11:17 PM
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So when's it going to be built? I'm excited to see. But with that new fullsize plane motor posted in this forum with 5kilowatts to a kilogram, which from the numbers blows everything away I imagine for a constant or peak it blows everything away and be the design to emulate. Nothing speaks like a bench test video.
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Old Apr 29, 2015, 12:15 AM
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about old or new:

this is actro C6.
this model motor used the praised for so much better design also with outside prefabricated coils just many (>10) years ago (12slot variation)



it wasn't better in resuls compared to normal design, so it became almost forgotten.
seems, the ingenieurs of this company did all wrong.....
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Old Apr 29, 2015, 04:27 AM
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Hi,
when my 10 years old son is home from school he will show you how to wind a coil that has minimum 20% lower resistanc than your wind in the 4540 cobaltiron motor . You have wind 7+6 1,5 mm YY . He is a very tiny boy but with his hand tool he can do.
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Old Apr 29, 2015, 05:06 AM
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senseless.
again: what I do is good enough for my use.
I cannot see the big benefit in your "super motor" for my needs.
make it better, if you want - it is really not interesting for me.
pls. accept this now.
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Old Apr 29, 2015, 09:49 AM
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Hi Ralph ,
relaxe ,it´s our hobby . i only wonder wy, no moore.
My son is ready ,he show how to make two wind all other self declering . His workbench a jigsaw ,not easy to saw thin 0,5mm copperplate.But this is only to show that it is not impossible to manufactur such coil with simply hand tool. This plates are stapled and sildered to highest copperfilling coil . Profesionell made this from eached copperfoil and spotweld the plates to get a coil . For the 4540 motor the coil can made from 0,3 mm plate that will result by a conductor wide of 6 mm to 1,8 mm square .Stapelt 10 turn will give only 3mm high coil 17mm wide by a statorteeth of 6mm wide ,it´s the double of the scorpion motor .Also the very short ironpassway will rise flux and the position of the coil close to the rotormagnets will give highest inductivy .Same coil made from 0,5mm copper will rise square from 1,8 to 2,5mm that is 38% moore copper .With the better flux the stator can mad shorter by 20% to get same torque and this in conjuction will lower resistance . But all this need a better ,stronger magnetsystem to run up to 2,3 tesla . For cooling we have a new way i will not show jet also the design of the stator and the coil are different . Coilplates can also stampcut and automated layed together . For isulation i tryed micro ceramic balls .For the stator 1 micron and smaller and for the coppercoil 10 micron . The other parts in the pic show profesionel made platecoils from silver . This doesn´t rise efficancy i want to rise powerdensity and this is a way .
Wy other do not so is not my problem
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Old Apr 30, 2015, 01:37 AM
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Umm! I like it Christian. Teach me. Ill listen and can use the power!!!!. Lets put it in a boat instead.
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Old Apr 30, 2015, 01:44 AM
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Hi,
for all who are interested in a stator made of cobalt iron plates in Swizerland LCD Lasercut can do it . They have the material , same as Mr. Okon used for his stator Vacudur 49.02 . You send a drawing or ready datafile and you will get single plates or ready glued for us stator. No exstra prozess needed . Single plates need less stress as every bending and force reduces the material posibility. That wy we only use slide on coils as there is no stress for the stator . Bending strong copperwire will stress the material.
Here is the link for your quest stator, http://www.lcd-lasercut.ch .
It's not secret you have to know one who knows one . Totaly silly words . Erverybody can do and use it.
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Old Apr 30, 2015, 01:56 AM
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Hi Hugh,
no moore need of teaching . There are many way to get such coil . You can also use Laserprinting and Galvanoforming with LIGA technologie . Both offer the hole coil made from one pice and you have options to integrate coolingchannels and space for advanced aircooling .How to do are my secrets and in do not show here ,but use your brain and you will find how to do . Copperfilling will be higher than all other coils and with LIGA technik i have fillament wire for this with all wire have the same lengh ,so no circuite current will flow . Galvanoforming is a mass production way ,see the razor shaver blad from Braun shaver ,they are made this way.
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