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Old Dec 22, 2014, 02:10 PM
WMD
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Model Builder plans on Outerzone

The AMA have asked me to remove all Model Builder plans from Outerzone.

Model Builder magazine published hundreds of plans between 1971 and 1996. The magazine finally folded, but then owner Bill Northrop set up the Northrop Plans Service and reprinted those MB plans and sold them, mail order. Bill Northrop sadly is not with us any more. He is survived by his wife, Mrs Northrop. She is not running the plans service, now. That service is now closed.

The AMA have recently been in touch with me and requested that I remove all MB plans from Outerzone. The AMA does not hold the copyright on these plans. Mrs Northrop holds the copyright. But I am told that Mrs Northrop has designated the AMA Plans Service as the exclusive printing agency for MB plans, and it is now my understanding that from this time onwards Mrs Northrop will receive a percentage on all MB plan sales by the AMA. On that basis, I feel that the only honourable course of action is to comply with the AMA request, and to remove MB plans from Outerzone.

There are around 300 plans from MB currently listed on Outerzone. Removing those plans will take me some time to sort out and to organise. I expect it will take me at least two weeks to get this done. I will be checking each and every one of the plans in question before I remove it from the listing. I particularly want to check that I do not remove any plans that are not copyright of MB. Some plans may be wrongly tagged as from MB. Also, some of the plans may be reprints of older vintage plans which were never actually copyright of MB. I am thinking of plans like this one: http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=186 ...originally published in MAN October 1937, this is clearly not a design /plan that was ever owned by MB, it just happened to get printed (duplicated) in there, later on. I am not talking here about the re-drawn plans (by say Al Patterson) of older vintage designs. It seems to me these were 'modern' drawings commissioned by MB and thus now owned by them. Even though the inspiration, the subject matter itself, was older.

I appreciate this does get complicated.

If you want to help out with this, you can do so by searching through Outerzone for Model Builder plans that did not originate from MB. I am talking here of plan that pre-date MB, so plans that are, say, pre-1970. Or another way to say it is: plans that got *re-printed* in MB, as oppposed to plans that got *re-drawn* in MB. If you can find me those plans then email me the name and planID, that would help, thanks.

Steve
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Old Dec 22, 2014, 03:58 PM
AndyKunz's Avatar
Illinois
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Have they also asked Roland Friestad to stop? He's been selling MB stuff for a while under his FullSizePlans.com and related sites. I have his CDs, and he got my collection of MB in exchange for them.

Andy
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Old Dec 22, 2014, 05:32 PM
WMD
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I don't know. I would be surprised if the AMA have not contacted Roland Friestad about this matter. But I really can't speculate further than that, sorry.
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 12:48 AM
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Aurora Municipal, Illinois, United States
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Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
Have they also asked Roland Friestad to stop? He's been selling MB stuff for a while under his FullSizePlans.com and related sites. I have his CDs, and he got my collection of MB in exchange for them.

Andy
I'm always perplexed by this guy. He obviously sells stuff that isn't his then threatens with warnings of copyright infringement if you make copies. I think he was at E-fest or Toledo one year giving out sample plans printed on news stock. They had the fuse plan but no wing plan. You had to purchase if you were interested. Never could figure out how Uncle Willie's plans garnered so much animosity but this guy seems to slip under the radar.
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WMD View Post
The AMA have asked me to remove all Model Builder plans from Outerzone.

Model Builder magazine published hundreds of plans between 1971 and 1996. The magazine finally folded, but then owner Bill Northrop set up the Northrop Plans Service and reprinted those MB plans and sold them, mail order. Bill Northrop sadly is not with us any more. He is survived by his wife, Mrs Northrop. She is not running the plans service, now. That service is now closed.

The AMA have recently been in touch with me and requested that I remove all MB plans from Outerzone. The AMA does not hold the copyright on these plans. Mrs Northrop holds the copyright. But I am told that Mrs Northrop has designated the AMA Plans Service as the exclusive printing agency for MB plans, and it is now my understanding that from this time onwards Mrs Northrop will receive a percentage on all MB plan sales by the AMA. On that basis, I feel that the only honourable course of action is to comply with the AMA request, and to remove MB plans from Outerzone.

There are around 300 plans from MB currently listed on Outerzone. Removing those plans will take me some time to sort out and to organise. I expect it will take me at least two weeks to get this done. I will be checking each and every one of the plans in question before I remove it from the listing. I particularly want to check that I do not remove any plans that are not copyright of MB. Some plans may be wrongly tagged as from MB. Also, some of the plans may be reprints of older vintage plans which were never actually copyright of MB. I am thinking of plans like this one: http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=186 ...originally published in MAN October 1937, this is clearly not a design /plan that was ever owned by MB, it just happened to get printed (duplicated) in there, later on. I am not talking here about the re-drawn plans (by say Al Patterson) of older vintage designs. It seems to me these were 'modern' drawings commissioned by MB and thus now owned by them. Even though the inspiration, the subject matter itself, was older.

I appreciate this does get complicated.

If you want to help out with this, you can do so by searching through Outerzone for Model Builder plans that did not originate from MB. I am talking here of plan that pre-date MB, so plans that are, say, pre-1970. Or another way to say it is: plans that got *re-printed* in MB, as oppposed to plans that got *re-drawn* in MB. If you can find me those plans then email me the name and planID, that would help, thanks.

Steve
Look your EMAIL.
Sent help.

Elijah.
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 06:13 AM
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Perhaps the AMA should actually PAY Steve for the work he's done to keep the designs active and not lost as so many have. Although many of the MB designs may have been submitted "Archive" ready, I'm sure that Steve has cleaned many more up in the past.

Really sad when "Big business" has to get its feet involved to prop up, in the main, its dwindling resources despite offers of recompense to the originators spouse. Pity that such a generous FREE gift has now been compromised and I have no doubt whatsoever that those who SELL copies on the magic Flee will be pursued and prosecuted. I also have NO doubt that the new administraitors (sic) will sell copies at a fair price but realise that all the hangers on have to have their cut too.

Thanks for the good thoughts Steve, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Regards Ian.
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 07:45 AM
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If that's the case, then AMA and Anita Northrop should be issuing cease and desist letters to the Ebay bootleggers as well. Many of the plans available were downloaded from RCG and Outerzone and sold there.
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 08:10 AM
Edubarca
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I just hope that this same issue is not brought up for RCM plans.
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 08:14 AM
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Weilbach, Germany
Joined May 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WMD View Post
The AMA have recently been in touch with me and requested that I remove all MB plans from Outerzone. The AMA does not hold the copyright on these plans. Mrs Northrop holds the copyright. But I am told that Mrs Northrop has designated the AMA Plans Service as the exclusive printing agency for MB plans, and it is now my understanding that from this time onwards Mrs Northrop will receive a percentage on all MB plan sales by the AMA. On that basis, I feel that the only honourable course of action is to comply with the AMA request, and to remove MB plans from Outerzone.
Steve
I'm sure you've thought this one through, but here's my two pennyworth.

Is there not a middle ground where you historically document these plans (even if low resolution) but with a notation referring to the AMA Plans Service where copies can be ordered full size ? In other words you become an advertising source for both Mrs Northrop and the AMA and everybody wins.

Chris P
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 10:13 AM
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Aurora Municipal, Illinois, United States
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Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
Steve
I'm sure you've thought this one through, but here's my two pennyworth.

Is there not a middle ground where you historically document these plans (even if low resolution) but with a notation referring to the AMA Plans Service where copies can be ordered full size ? In other words you become an advertising source for both Mrs Northrop and the AMA and everybody wins.

Chris P
I don't mind saying it. The AMA and a select group of others have always held Bill and Anita Northrop in high esteem. I never seen them that way. They were very quick to put their logo on any old timer design and claim it for their own. Don't understand why other folks don't see it. I think Roland Friestad copied their business plan.

Steve will do the right thing and honor the AMA's request and the most originals will get locked into a vault at the AMA headquarters to never see the light of day again.
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 10:19 AM
WMD
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Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
...Is there not a middle ground where you historically document these plans (even if low resolution) but with a notation referring to the AMA Plans Service where copies can be ordered full size ? In other words you become an advertising source for both Mrs Northrop and the AMA and everybody wins...
I'm not against that in principle. But it's all about the detail of how it happens. I think Outerzone works well at the moment because it is very simple - everything is available, and everything is free. If it's in the database, it's a free download. If you search for a plan and find it listed on Outerzone, then you know that plan is a free download. I am wary of introducing a two-tier system where users search for and find plans... but then sometimes are disappointed to find they are not available.

Will think about it.
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 03:05 PM
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Tampere, Finland
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Model Builder plans are gone from HPA too - or at least all that were in the "Model Builder Magazine" category.
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Old Dec 23, 2014, 03:46 PM
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Napa, CA
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The folks that build from plans are rapidly decreasing in number. This garbage from the AMA will only further it along. So are all the OT designs going too?
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Old Dec 24, 2014, 06:55 AM
WMD
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Originally Posted by tri-pacer View Post
...are all the OT designs going too?
You mean the re-drawn plans by Al Patterson? Yes. To be honest a number of those drawings are of designs that are also listed on Outerzone a second time, in a more original drawing. If you see what I mean.
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Old Dec 24, 2014, 07:04 AM
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"...most originals will get locked into a vault at the AMA headquarters to never see the light of day again."

bullseye000, are you saying that AMA's Plan Service will never list the MBM plans for sale in their catalog?

Jim R.
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