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Old Oct 14, 2007, 06:31 PM
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Graffiti-scale. Arrgh!

Is there anybody else out there who is bothered by historical aircraft being treated like some juvenile punk was "expressing himself" on a fence?
When computers are a world-wide scource of accuracy, as regards historical design & markings, why are our eyes assailed with grossly wrong creations?
For one example, the DeHavilland DH-82 Tiger Moth can be found marketed as a model, with un-godly wrong shapes to such things as its cowl, vertical tail, color scheme, and don't even get me started on the roundels!
In the old days, we had to dig long & hard through printed references, to find this stuff out, but with today's computers, such stuff is a click away.
It is not just in models, either. Recently, I saw documentation of what may be the last Curtiss P-40B that was actually on Oahu on Dec. 7th, 1941, and it had been marked with post-autum, 1942, markings.
Yesterday, I saw an Aeronca L-2, (full-scale), flying from a museum, freshly-painted, with the national insignia on the lower-left, & upper-right wing, 180 degrees WRONG!
If this kind of stuff means anything to you, and you get "Model Aviation" magazine, take a look at the supposedly authoritative "Scale" article, therein, and you will see many glaring errors.
Maybe I have lived too long, and history is no longer important.
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Old Oct 14, 2007, 07:02 PM
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Well, it is whatever you want it to be. Sloppy research, cockup, plain don't care...

If it is REPRESENTED to be accurate, it is of course wrong by that representation.

I agree there is an attitude of contempt towards customers, consumers and so on by those who ought to know better: since this isn't LTUP I won't get philosophical about why this is: suffice to say it cannot last forever. When times get tough a premium is there for people who get things right.
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Old Oct 14, 2007, 07:22 PM
56S
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I have a nice example of a 1981 Lancia Zagato that I restored a few years ago. Found 'er in a junkyard with frogs breeding in the interior. A car show judge told me that if my wheel lug bolts were not black as I had painted them instead of plated as other Lancias he had seen that he would have removed points. Little did he know that monies were tight and I took the short cut of painting the plated lugs instead of sending them off to be plated as they should have been. Vintage, you may have seen a few Spyders in your time as there are more of them in the UK and europe than the states. BTW, Our Zagato is on the cover of Internationl Auto Parts this quarter. Improper colored lugs and all!
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Old Oct 14, 2007, 07:50 PM
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Scale is whatever the owner/builder wants it to be. I have built models that have glaring differences from actual. I know that some of what I build may offend a purist for that model. It does not matter to me as long as I like it. I do not build to compete so I am the only person I need to satisfy.

FWIW, most of the models I build cannot be identified by most folks. They confuse an SRE as a Staggerwing, the SPAD is called a Camel, even the PBY has been called an Albatros. The Morane Saulnier just gets blank looks. I also get folks ask where they can buy one of my models since they think they are ARF's.

It can be very discouraging building scale planes. Those who aren't familiar with them misidentify them Those who do know them are critical of the build. Can't win, so, I don't try.

charlie
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Old Oct 14, 2007, 08:33 PM
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It is funny about the Aeronca L-2 because it is full sized and that means that if I make a scale model painted like that and document the full sized one, I now have and accurate scale model, even if the thing it is a model of is grossly wrong.

Same for the P-40B, which is near and dear to my heart being what the AVG flew. (actually I think they were B's converted to C's in the field, but I may be off on that one)

The shark teeth just plain look better on them.

Pete
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Old Oct 14, 2007, 09:50 PM
I eat glue
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I understand where Lancer is coming from about the full size birds done up obviously wrong. With models it's hard to know when to say when, with scale detail or accuracy. I think all models are to an extent a compromise as to how scale they can be and still fly well. I consider myself a semi-scale modeler, mainly because I don't have the scale needed to be a good scale modeler. The biggest compliment I can get is if some one looks at a model of mine flying and says " it looks just like a real one.". That said, I do try to at least have relatively close to proper colours, and markings. My uncle who flew in the big one says he can't remember seeing a plane with perfectly straight invasion stripes painted on them. Says they used brushes, rollers, what ever they had to free hand paint the stripes one, yet we see highly scale models with perfectly straight and true stripes on them. I think mainly because the modeler just can't stand to see them a little off! I agree with Charlie, if you're not competing with it and it makes you happy, then more power to ya! I have a thread that shows my Ryan Corsair with panel lines, are they the proper shape and in the proper location? No freakin way, didn't have the patience to do that, just did relatively accurately shaped panels, and sort of close lines. Am I happy with it? You bet. Same goes for my EDF F-18, panel lines look good, but sure ain't accurate. But I don't claim they are, and never would. Those that do these style of scale details and claim they are scale, should be forced to fly paper airplanes the rest of their life- and claim they're scale. Ok, I'll shut up now.
Baldguy
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Old Oct 14, 2007, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteSchug
The shark teeth just plain look better on them.

Pete
The only P-40s that look good with sharks teeth are the one's flown by the originators of the marking - 112 Sqdn RAF in the western desert!
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Old Oct 14, 2007, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer31
Recently, I saw documentation of what may be the last Curtiss P-40B that was actually on Oahu on Dec. 7th, 1941, and it had been marked with post-autum, 1942, markings.
I assume you're speaking of the TFC example. There is a wartime picture of this airplane circulating which was taken prior to December 7, 1941 and the markings are exactly what is seen on the restored airplane. I have not been able to locate said pic but when I do I will post a link. The picture could not have been taken post-autumn 1942 as the airplane was lost in January of that year.
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 07:26 AM
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A P-38 is mounted on a pylon on McGuire AFB, as Tommy McGuire was flying one of them when he died.

It's easy to forgive that it's the wrong model P-38, as they are rather hard to come by. But, the finish is overall glossy and several of the markings are incorrect.

Also, does anyone remember the flap over the AF Museum's P-51 "Sharp Shooter"?

Then, there are the ARFS that abound with strange markings and shapes. Spitfires with inwards retracts, Bettys painted up as US aircraft (including D-Day stripes!), etc.

One of the delights of the scale modeller is to build something unique. That does lead to some hilarity at times, though. I've had my Harrow "identified" as a B-25, B-24, and even a B-17! I can understand the twin tails and twin engines being confused for a Mitchell, or even that those who can't count beyond 5 whilst holding a cigarette, but a B-17????

<sigh>

CD

I wonder what the flying field ARFers will make of my Flycatcher? Probably think it's a Camel, or a Spitfire.....
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 08:06 AM
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Sorry, I read you post over again and realize it was directed at full size and not models.

Display aircraft frequently have the wrong model to display, but, they should at least get the paint right. The problem? No one at the site cares. They just want folks to come in and look at their pretty 'trophy'. What they don't understand is that if a museum has a display that is obviously wrong, then I will assume the rest of the displays are just as bad and I'll bypass that particular business. Displays at military bases have no excuses. If they are wrong it just means no one cares, especially the base commander.

I do believe that civil aircraft can be painted whatever they want for day-to-day use. I don't care if an antique Nieuport, Stearman, Spitfire, etc is painted with hot rod flames.

But, if the person shows up for a display at an air show someone should pull the plane from the line and not pay the appearance fee.

charlie
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 11:10 AM
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In defense of the guys who restore full-size aircraft in "improper" markings;

Very few real airplanes go through their entire service lives in the same markings. Each time they're painted they become "correct", at least for that particular airplane in that particular time period. Markings that make an airplane correct for one time period make it incorrect for another. Unless numerous examples exist of that particular type aircraft, there's probably no way around that.

Which brings up another point...that of "restored" aircraft. Most P-51's now flying wore nothing more than national insignia and a serial number in military service but have been restored in garish, "LOOK AT ME!" markings. Distasteful as the latter may be, both liveries are correct...the former for the aircraft as built by North American, the latter for the aircraft as "recreated" by a wealthy benefactor. If not for the guys writing the checks, we wouldn't have any of these precious machines to look at in any markings, "correct" or otherwise.

As for the models...there are many approaches to scale modeling. Personally, I regard the hobby, especially F/F and Electric R/C Scale, as a form of artistic expression. Stick-and-tissue modeling to me is like watercolor painting, the intent being to evoke a feeling about the subject. The innocence and lack of complication of a light plane, for example, or the impartial lethality of a military fighter. Achieving those goals is not always consistent with perfect, rivet-for-rivet scale accuracy, and in fact, may not be desireable. Do we build that which is technically superior, or that which makes us smile? There's room for both, I think.

I'm glad we're just talking about models, and not "Karaoke" or "Elvis Impersonators."
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi
The only P-40s that look good with sharks teeth are the one's flown by the originators of the marking - 112 Sqdn RAF in the western desert!
I know the AVG didn't originate the shark's teeth, but I like the way they look on the P-40B/C rather than the P-40D and later. It was just a sharkier looking plane. The big radiator in the later ones didn't have the same look.

Pete
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Old Oct 15, 2007, 12:23 PM
I eat glue
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I like the shark teeth on the Pilatus Turbo Porter from AirAmerica!
Heh Ojimy, it's stick and tissue too!!
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