HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
This thread is privately moderated by billpa, who may elect to delete unwanted replies.
Old Nov 05, 2013, 10:31 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,035 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC View Post
In 2D mode....
If you cannot have a different Rate set, to give 100% SIGNAL travel, then you can never tell the Guardian to move to the limit of the 2D bank angle (or pitch) that you set. This is true but there should be no reason you can't set 100%, see below.
ie You set the Guardian 2D max bank to 60deg, but the Roll signal (due to rates) is only ever 60%, thus you can only ever get 60% of that 60deg.
To help offset this, set for 90deg max bank angle... thus you can at least get 60% of that 90deg. The maximum bank angle the PC application will accept is 80.

But even doing this, it seemed to me that the value in the Guardian is 'odd' in what your plane's result will be. I set a huge max bank angle, and still cannot turn very well. If I use more Elevator (pitch), as per 'bank and yank', it turns but also climbs more too. You have then also told the Guardian you WANT to CLIMB. It does not know that you really wanted to fly LEVEL and turn better.

All in all I am not so sure that this banking angle stuff translates to great aircraft control, because bank alone does not 'turn' an aircraft overly well - and it is also aircraft design dependent, thus varies from plane to plane type. Assuming the plane is in a coordinated turn, the turn rate is directly related to the bank angle and airspeed. It is a formula that has nothing to do with the design of the aircraft. It's true, of course, that some combinations of bank angle and airspeed will cause a stall in some planes, but up to that point the formula applies. If you are not sure you are flying a coordinated turn, activate automatic turn coordination in the software (if you have a rudder).
I only have the Guardians in EDF jets, and jet tend to fall out of turns a LOT (due to small wings and high wing loadings), so the Guardian in 2D mode does not 'turn' them very well at all really!

Maybe it would have been more useful if the 'Bank angle' of 2D mode had really been a 'Turn Angle" system. So that using Roll was taken as "I want tot TURN the plane". Same for Rudder.... but because many people have planes without Rudders, they would need it via Ailerons (Roll) too.
And if you pick 2D mode then, THAT is what you have to accept as the 'new' mode of control - just as the current 2D system is a different mode to normal flying anyway.
If you pick 2D mode, that means you only want to fly around sedately in a predominantly level flight mode.... so that new method I mention suits that anyway.
The concept of 100% rates/travel is a somewhat arbitrary compromise. Different manufacturers have assumed different values for this compromise. What is being compromised is resolution vs. response speed. It is generally good practice to set your planes up at 100% travel and 100% high rate to put yourself in the sweet spot in this compromise. If your maximum travel/rate is only 60% you are giving away some of the resolution your radio system is capable of. If your maximum travel/rate is 150% you are giving away some of the speed your servos are capable of. Some flyers in some situations make the decision to do this intentionally because they put more value on one parameter vs. the other but for most of us for most planes it's best to stay close to 100% on the transmitter and adjust the linkages as needed to get the desired throw. Having more throw than you can safely use and limiting that back with travel or rate adjustments is not good practice, Guardian or not.

The only thing the Guardian can see from the transmitter is the pulse width. If you are having trouble turning in 2D this is where you need to look. Since most of us don't have the ability to measure this directly, the next best thing is the percentage shown on the monitor screen of most computer radios. The main components are stick deflection, travel limit, and dual rates. It can also be affected by expo, mixing, and subtrim but these probably aren't limiting your bank angle.

If your plane is set up with 100% travel, high rates at 100%, and an 80 max bank angle, you will have more than enough bank angle to turn in 2D. But maybe you don't do most of your flying on high rates, I don't. If your low rate is 70%, then 70% of 80 is 56. That's still enough for a good turn rate, and if you really want more, flip to high rate. This is how I set mine up.

If you are in the habit of flying with low rates at 40%, you will probably be disappointed in the turn rate as 40% of 80 is only 32 and that will yield a rather slow turn. This could also be a problem if your travel limit is, say, 60% as 60% travel x 60% rate x 80 is only 29 bank! In such cases what you can do is crank up the travel setting to max if necessary and adjust the linkage so you get the desired maximum deflection at max stick and 100% rate. This way 40% low rate x 150% travel x 80 is 48 bank, not too bad. Just be prepared if you switch to 100% high rate But if you regularly fly with such a wide difference between high and low rates you should be used to this.

There really isn't a need to get hung up in the math, I put that in for illustration. Just set up your plane so the rates you use the most give you about 70-100% on your monitor and set 80 max bank angle. Adjust your linkages to get the maximum throw you will actually use. All should be fine. If it's turning a little slow for you, switch to high rate.

I hope that wasn't too much information to illustrate how this works.
choochoo22 is offline Find More Posts by choochoo22
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Nov 05, 2013, 10:39 PM
Registered User
DamonH's Avatar
United States, NM, Clovis
Joined Oct 2011
3,132 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nageotte View Post
Hi, Bear with me, I am tired and don't really know what I am doing anyway. I bought a DX8 so that I could use the G. My 8 channel rx is not here yet so I am learning with an orange 6 channel RX. The Mod Sw is working fine. But I mixed Aux 3 to Ger so that I could use the knob on gain input to the G. The little slide that indicates gear position only moves half way for a full twist of the knob. I can make that work, but is there a better way? Is there a way to get the full range of the knob onto the gain input of the G?

Thanks.
Is your travel set to 100/100 on the servo setup menu for the aux3?
DamonH is online now Find More Posts by DamonH
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2013, 10:42 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,035 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nageotte View Post
Hi, Bear with me, I am tired and don't really know what I am doing anyway. I bought a DX8 so that I could use the G. My 8 channel rx is not here yet so I am learning with an orange 6 channel RX. The Mod Sw is working fine. But I mixed Aux 3 to Ger so that I could use the knob on gain input to the G. The little slide that indicates gear position only moves half way for a full twist of the knob. I can make that work, but is there a better way? Is there a way to get the full range of the knob onto the gain input of the G?

Thanks.
A DX8 is a good choice with a Guardian. Assuming a 4 ch plane, use this setup.
  1. Throttle
  2. Aileron
  3. Elevator
  4. Rudder
  5. Gain
  6. Mode
Use the setup menu (the one you get to by holding the roller down when you power on), find the switch assignment sub-menu. Set the Gear switch to inhibit. Set the Knob to Gear.

With this arrangement you select the mode with the flap switch, center off. The knob controls the gain. I reverse the gain channel to get the gain to increase clockwise but that is optional.

If you are new to the Guardian, I recommend following the New Users Guide from here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=354219

EDIT: Don't forget to disable any relevant mixing you might have put in.
choochoo22 is offline Find More Posts by choochoo22
Last edited by choochoo22; Nov 06, 2013 at 03:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2013, 11:04 PM
Registered User
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Nov 2006
10,899 Posts
I just used the "60% of 90deg" for people with Dual Rates set.
I have a 2D Mix that sets 100% travels (signals)... and I have max bank angle in the Guardian set (I thought max was 90deg).... and it still can't turn a jet!! Not without UP elevator used.
With no elevator used it turns somewhat but loses height too.
Watching it in flight I doubt it is using anywhere near the 'max bank 80deg' at all. More like 30deg or so - though I have not seen it up very close to truly tell.
Why aren't THEY causing a co-ordinated aileron/elevator turn, and maintaining level flight, themselves totally? An Airbus does, just by giving left/right stick.... hehe. Roll stick means "I want to turn", and they can only do 30deg max.... but they still turn quite well !
PeterVRC is online now Find More Posts by PeterVRC
RCG Plus Member
Old Nov 05, 2013, 11:43 PM
Registered User
fuelsguy's Avatar
Seattle
Joined Dec 2001
1,440 Posts
ChooChoo, Thanks for the suggestions.
I do actually have electric airplanes, haven't had a fuel one for years, the fuelsguy "nom-du-plume" is a hangover from my past, when I was involved with fuel systems on all the Boeing airplanes.
I think I'll go with some kind of momentary switch to power down the receiver and by default the guardian. I'll post what I end up with and any lessons learned along the way.
fuelsguy is online now Find More Posts by fuelsguy
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 02:40 AM
Registered User
United States, PA, Washington
Joined Dec 2012
119 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0000 View Post
Where did your pot and master gain settings end up at at this time,what method of mounting the G did you implement ?
Please note that these settings are approximate and I will be tweaking them in the future. One thing I noticed is that there is a definite relationship between speed and stability (oscillation). High speed + high gains = oscillation. The trick is to find a happy medium. Since most of my flying is done at low to medium speed & high alpha, I will be increasing my pot settings for yaw & pitch the next time out (which may be next week, next month or in the spring).

Here are the approximate pot settings:
Yaw CW 50%
Roll CCW 50%
Pitch CW 50%

Master gain was around 40%

See post 7281 for mounting method.

I really dont care about 2D mode. For me it is an emergency "get out of trouble" switch. Even then, if I'm doing high alpha manuevers close to the deck 2D could cause me even more grief
alstoys is offline Find More Posts by alstoys
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 02:46 AM
ancora imparo
jj604's Avatar
Melbourne, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
6,398 Posts
If you are using an ESC with an inbuilt BEC there is possibly another option.

SOME ESCs will cut BEC power as well as cutting all motor power if you ground the signal wire. This not only acts as a convenient safetyswitch/throttle kill but powers down the receiver and everything running off it as well.

I have a Castle ESC that does this, some ESCs do - some don't.

Worth trying as it only needs a small single pole switch between the throttle signal lead (white or orange) and ground (black or brown). Simplest way is just to solder one in a short servo extension lead and extend the throttle connection wire. If it works it is a nice solution as it adds an ON/OFF switch to the electric power system and is adding very little additional failure points to the electrical system.

It's very convenient. I leave mine off till I am ready to fly so the plane is safe, then switch on, do the Guardian trim/level toggle (if I need to) and take off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuelsguy View Post
ChooChoo, Thanks for the suggestions.
I do actually have electric airplanes, haven't had a fuel one for years, the fuelsguy "nom-du-plume" is a hangover from my past, when I was involved with fuel systems on all the Boeing airplanes.
I think I'll go with some kind of momentary switch to power down the receiver and by default the guardian. I'll post what I end up with and any lessons learned along the way.
jj604 is offline Find More Posts by jj604
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 03:49 AM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,035 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC View Post
I just used the "60% of 90deg" for people with Dual Rates set.
I have a 2D Mix that sets 100% travels (signals)... and I have max bank angle in the Guardian set (I thought max was 90deg).... and it still can't turn a jet!! Not without UP elevator used.
With no elevator used it turns somewhat but loses height too.
Watching it in flight I doubt it is using anywhere near the 'max bank 80deg' at all. More like 30deg or so - though I have not seen it up very close to truly tell.
Why aren't THEY causing a co-ordinated aileron/elevator turn, and maintaining level flight, themselves totally? An Airbus does, just by giving left/right stick.... hehe. Roll stick means "I want to turn", and they can only do 30deg max.... but they still turn quite well !
Since all manufacturers do not use the same value for 100%, you may not get exactly 80 even if you do get 100% from your transmitter. But it should be close, definitely not 30.

Here's how you find out; With plane in hand, activate 2D. Hold the aileron stick full over to one side. Roll the plane in the direction the ailerons are deflected. As you roll the plane, watch the ailerons move back towards neutral. At some bank angle, the ailerons will be back to neutral. That is the bank angle you will get in flight if you hold full aileron stick. If your plane has a lot of inherent stability you might get slightly less than this but this method is a really good indicator.

If you are flying a fast jet you will need a pretty steep bank angle to get decent turns, probably in the 50-60 range. If the bank angle you observed in the test above is too shallow, check your servo monitor screen to see what values your transmitter is sending. You may need to make some adjustments as described in my earlier post but you can achieve bank angles upwards of 60 and get tighter turns.

You will need to apply elevator to hold altitude, the steeper the bank, the more elevator is needed. I'm sure you are right about the autopilot in an Airbus but do you think you can buy one for $75 and fit it in your model? Have you ever seen an Airbus on autopilot in an 80 bank? It may be possible for Eagle Tree to implement a turn with altitude hold with only an algorithm based on bank angle or you may need an altimeter, not sure. I suspect that basing the feature on just a formula would need some in flight calibration that would complicate setup and may be beyond the ability of new pilots who need it most while experienced pilots would just skip it.

Let me also suggest another way of using 2D. I set up my 2D level to hold the proper airspeed on landing approach, usually power off but a plane with high wing loading may need some minimal power on landing. This makes 2D landings a breeze. I'm continually impressed with how slow and steady the plane floats in. Adding a little power will hold altitude while adding more power will climb. The fastest I am generally going in 2D is a slow cruise, this makes turning easier as a side effect. An exception is if I hit 2D as a rescue device which could happen at faster speeds but then I'm fine if it climbs under those circumstances, that's generally what I wan anyway.
choochoo22 is offline Find More Posts by choochoo22
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 03:56 AM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,035 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by alstoys View Post
I really dont care about 2D mode. For me it is an emergency "get out of trouble" switch. Even then, if I'm doing high alpha manuevers close to the deck 2D could cause me even more grief
Yes it could. Not long ago someone posted a video of a large, beautiful, and very expensive plane that crashed for exactly that reason. The pilot was doing high alpha about one wingspan off the deck and hit 2D when he meant to hit 3D. The plane leveled out and without the thrust to support it, it was on the ground and destroyed before he could correct.
choochoo22 is offline Find More Posts by choochoo22
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 04:30 AM
Registered User
Canada, BC, Burnaby
Joined Jun 2013
32 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by alstoys View Post
Please note that these settings are approximate and I will be tweaking them in the future. One thing I noticed is that there is a definite relationship between speed and stability (oscillation). High speed + high gains = oscillation. The trick is to find a happy medium. Since most of my flying is done at low to medium speed & high alpha, I will be increasing my pot settings for yaw & pitch the next time out (which may be next week, next month or in the spring).

Here are the approximate pot settings:
Yaw CW 50%
Roll CCW 50%
Pitch CW 50%

Master gain was around 40%

See post 7281 for mounting method.

I really dont care about 2D mode. For me it is an emergency "get out of trouble" switch. Even then, if I'm doing high alpha manuevers close to the deck 2D could cause me even more grief


What firmware version are you using on the G?.....I have found that the beta version of the latest firmware works considerably better for vibration rejection than the final release......
0000 is online now Find More Posts by 0000
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 06:41 AM
Registered User
United States, PA, Washington
Joined Dec 2012
119 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0000 View Post
What firmware version are you using on the G?.....I have found that the beta version of the latest firmware works considerably better for vibration rejection than the final release......
Version 1.19 Downloaded on 10/31/2013
alstoys is offline Find More Posts by alstoys
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 10:10 AM
Michael
United States, ME, Wells
Joined May 2008
1,075 Posts
EDFs and 2D

I have Guardians in a Habu32 and a Habu2 and regularly land in 2D mode. I have a mix that sets my DR to 100% across the board when in 2D mode; regardless of my DR switch(es.)

As I have the 100% DR (TX, Guardian, and mechanically confirmed on my birds), I left the max bank angle at 60o. I regularly get 60o banked turns with both 'bus when in 2D mode. Old habits die hard so I usually add rudder when turning. I should try leaving rudder alone and experiment with G in coupled mode or mix..., but the way it flies suits me quite well. Again, not limited to about 30o bank.

I set my "2D level" to have the nosewheel about an inch off the ground and this has saved my birds from my less than stellar arrivals.

The Habu32 will tip stall if it gets too slow, so I tend to let the nose drop if in a 60o bank, but it does turn at a very nice rate.

3D is a blast, of course, with axial rolls...

Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
Since all manufacturers do not use the same value for 100%, you may not get exactly 80 even if you do get 100% from your transmitter. But it should be close, definitely not 30.

Here's how you find out; With plane in hand, activate 2D. Hold the aileron stick full over to one side. Roll the plane in the direction the ailerons are deflected. As you roll the plane, watch the ailerons move back towards neutral. At some bank angle, the ailerons will be back to neutral. That is the bank angle you will get in flight if you hold full aileron stick. If your plane has a lot of inherent stability you might get slightly less than this but this method is a really good indicator.

If you are flying a fast jet you will need a pretty steep bank angle to get decent turns, probably in the 50-60 range. If the bank angle you observed in the test above is too shallow, check your servo monitor screen to see what values your transmitter is sending. You may need to make some adjustments as described in my earlier post but you can achieve bank angles upwards of 60 and get tighter turns.

You will need to apply elevator to hold altitude, the steeper the bank, the more elevator is needed. I'm sure you are right about the autopilot in an Airbus but do you think you can buy one for $75 and fit it in your model? Have you ever seen an Airbus on autopilot in an 80 bank? It may be possible for Eagle Tree to implement a turn with altitude hold with only an algorithm based on bank angle or you may need an altimeter, not sure. I suspect that basing the feature on just a formula would need some in flight calibration that would complicate setup and may be beyond the ability of new pilots who need it most while experienced pilots would just skip it.

Let me also suggest another way of using 2D. I set up my 2D level to hold the proper airspeed on landing approach, usually power off but a plane with high wing loading may need some minimal power on landing. This makes 2D landings a breeze. I'm continually impressed with how slow and steady the plane floats in. Adding a little power will hold altitude while adding more power will climb. The fastest I am generally going in 2D is a slow cruise, this makes turning easier as a side effect. An exception is if I hit 2D as a rescue device which could happen at faster speeds but then I'm fine if it climbs under those circumstances, that's generally what I wan anyway.
Snowflake6515 is offline Find More Posts by Snowflake6515
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 11:33 AM
I can fix it.
nageotte's Avatar
Cochranton, Pa.
Joined Nov 2005
1,355 Posts
Thanks, I got it. Easy when you know how. I struggled with the switch assignment until I realized you have to inhibit one before it is an option on another switch.


Use the setup menu (the one you get to by holding the roller down when you power on), find the switch assignment sub-menu. Set the Gear switch to inhibit. Set the Knob to Gear.
nageotte is offline Find More Posts by nageotte
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 01:13 PM
Easy on the Sticks!
BattleDude's Avatar
United States, WY, Crowheart
Joined Aug 2011
3,266 Posts
I am kinda new to this ET Guardian stuff, so sorry if my question is a silly one!

Is there no way to view what the "master gain" is set at, from the PC software, or is that what one (or more) of the settings on the "2D" page is indicating?
BattleDude is offline Find More Posts by BattleDude
Last edited by BattleDude; Nov 06, 2013 at 03:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 06, 2013, 03:24 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,035 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BattleDude View Post
I am kinda new to this ET Guardian stuff, so sorry if my question is a silly one!

Is there no way to view what the "master gain" is set at, from the PC software, or is that what one (or more) of the settings on the "2D" page is indicating?
The master gain comes from your transmitter controlled by a switch or, preferably, a knob or slider. The value is viewable on the servo monitor screen of your transmitter. It is not visible from the PC application.

If you are new to Guardian, let me recommend the New User Guide from here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=354219
choochoo22 is offline Find More Posts by choochoo22
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Can I control Guardian stabilizer with DX6i? njwxyz Eagle Tree Systems 9 Jun 02, 2014 12:17 PM
Discussion GPS 2D Plots incomplete, 3D OK jackerbes Eagle Tree Systems 1 Oct 23, 2011 09:42 PM
Discussion Premier 1st generation, Gen 2 Vector unit, 2D or 3D motor unit lanternfly RC Kites 0 Oct 05, 2011 09:42 PM
Data 2d or 3d wing ribs? Marty7n Beginner Training Area (Aircraft-Electric) 56 Sep 22, 2011 04:06 PM
Discussion 3View to 3D to 2d techasist CAD/CAM 0 Mar 27, 2011 12:19 AM