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Old Oct 31, 2014, 11:47 PM
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Help!
radian motor rewind 480 reverse shaft960 kv

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ok so these are the pics of my motor the wires that i was able to take off were 11 wraps clock wise then 11 counter clock wise on the next stator arm there was instructions posted for a motor http://www.micronradiocontrol.co.uk/...o/KH-257-2.pdf seems to be similar but as you can see there are more then 1 wire i am wondering if the 11 wraps are 1 wire then 8 wraps another and so on i cant un wrap the wires any more they seem to be glued any help wood bee apreciated
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Old Nov 01, 2014, 07:12 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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You have gotten what you needed to do the rewind. The 11 turns is what you wanted to know. And it is a dLRK wind terminated Delta.

The bundle of small strands (get a count on the strands in the bundle if you can) makes for a winding strand that is equivalent to a larger single strand in cross section surface area but more flexible and easier to wind with.

If you have a motor wound with six strands of 0.30mm wire each of those bundle is equivalent to a single strand of 22 or 21 AWG wire.

This thread will walk you through all of the considerations of choosing a wind, choosing a turn count, and choosing a wire size to use:

Tower Pro BM2410-12D LRK "Y" Rewind - www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1382108

That shows a "Y" or Wye terminated motor. Yours, if you want to do the same wind and turn count to get the same Kv, would be Delta terminated. But that is the last step in the winding process and winding for either Delta or Wye would be the same up to the point where you terminate the motor.

Jack
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Old Nov 01, 2014, 03:18 PM
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jack i have a verry good question for you . i removed all the wires and aparently there were several wires wraped at 11 times. i now know the wiring patern thanks to you . my other big hobby i even wanted to go pro is air brushing i have an old compressor that has some prety large guage wire around the rotor that i can strip off do you think i can possibly get by with just a single strand 11 times . what if i can go more how would it efect the motor. lastly i remember going through the woods around here i discovered some onne dumped an old refrigerator and a tv i can possibly scavenge that wire
the reason why i am asking it it was a mess taking off the old wire i have no clue except for the close up images of the wires going to the leads to the speed control
as for the rest of the airplane the wings i belive one wing was cocked down slightly causing the airplane to want to bank thats why i had to give full right elevator and i also believe the angle of the both wings was off (my fault i could have checked with a straight edge . i can rebuild a balsa re enforced with carbon fiber tube fuselage and re enforce the wing root with ply wood and make bolt on wings . it would be awesome if i can actually re build this airplane... i shall call it the phoenix
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Old Nov 01, 2014, 04:37 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying ferret View Post
jack i have a verry good question for you . i removed all the wires and aparently there were several wires wraped at 11 times. i now know the wiring patern thanks to you . my other big hobby i even wanted to go pro is air brushing i have an old compressor that has some prety large guage wire around the rotor that i can strip off do you think i can possibly get by with just a single strand 11 times
Using used wire is an invitation to it getting nicks in the insulation and and getting shorted.

Count the strands in one bundle, if there are six strands of 0.30mm wire (the most commonly used size in a multi strand wind) that would be about 30 AWG wire and the bundle of six would be equivalent to a single strand of 22 AWG. If you can find a local motor rewinding shop you can probably buy some 22 or 23 AWG wire and you need about 30 feet of it at the most.

You can buy good wire here (and many other places too but the Radio Shack wire is junk), he sells it via eBay: http://www.techfixx.com/

Quote:
. what if i can go more how would it efect the motor. lastly i remember going through the woods around here i discovered some onne dumped an old refrigerator and a tv i can possibly scavenge that wire
More turns =lower Kv, fewer turns = higher Kv, the larger the wire is the more current it will handle. So you want the wire that fills the stator full with copper when you get the needed turns on. What Kv you want is decided by the prop and battery voltage, if what you had was working good just do the same wind.

You want wire of a size such that 11 turns fills the stator as close to full as possible.

So with all that said, any wire you can find that will let you get 11 turns with a good fill, and that still has it's insulation intact, will probably work.

If there are gaps and chips in the coating on the stator (like the sharp corners where the wires make the turns, you can cut pieces of Tyvek paper (free if cut from a Priority Mail Tyvek envelope) and lay them on the corners as needed to keep from getting nicks and shorts to the stator.

Quote:
the reason why i am asking it it was a mess taking off the old wire i have no clue except for the close up images of the wires going to the leads to the speed control
It is almost always a mess getting the old wire of with the epoxy on it and stuff. Look at this thread, how I had to be patient and work at it to get the stator bare. That is what "man knitting" is all about. If you can deal with it, you won't be successful...

hexTronik DT750 Motor Rewind for Multicopter - www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1892195


Quote:
as for the rest of the airplane the wings i belive one wing was cocked down slightly causing the airplane to want to bank thats why i had to give full right elevator and i also believe the angle of the both wings was off (my fault i could have checked with a straight edge . i can rebuild a balsa re enforced with carbon fiber tube fuselage and re enforce the wing root with ply wood and make bolt on wings . it would be awesome if i can actually re build this airplane... i shall call it the phoenix
The plane is what it is, I don't have any experience with the Radian but I don't buy airplanes much. I am (or at least was) a foamie builder, not a buyer.

Build a foamie from scratch! If you want a glider, the Blu Sail II would be good choice. You can build about 20 BS II's for the price of one Radian! It is not quite as good a glider as is the Radian but you'll love because you built it!

Blu-Sail II and the Joy of Monobloc and KFm Wings - www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=780543

Big Blu 96 - 96" KFm9 Winged Glider - http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1470211

Sound like you want to fly acrobatic as much as flying a glider, build yourself a Kline_Fogelman flying wind like the Divinity or Divinity II and you'll never regret it.

Jack
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Old Nov 01, 2014, 09:09 PM
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lol thanks jack as for scavenging wire no good i took apart an old computer monitor it had a ton of wire butit was all epoxied together. the way i look at it if i have to order the wire which knowing the area i live in i will . I think I will just pick up a new radian motor this week. i love to mess with modifications i sanded off most of the foam off a champ fuselage and made it ultra light and then threw on larger ruder and elevator flaps and a radian motor and reciever the thing flies like a bat i want to modify it further by lenghthening the fuselage and giving it a wider wing span with a polyhedral design lastly throw on a folding prop dont ask why i just want to do it it would be cool to have a glider with landing gear i also put on a larger tail wheel so the thing actualy does taxi on the ground
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Old Nov 01, 2014, 09:11 PM
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one mod i want to try is to cut off the wing tips of the radian and glue in a carbon fiber tube and shaft and atatch a servo so the whole wing tips move up and down like ailerons ,,, justfor fun
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Old Nov 02, 2014, 09:17 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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The Gorilla Quick polyurethane glue is wonderful stuff for working with foam. You can lay CF tubes and arrow shafts and the like into a groove (topped off with a piece of weighted down wax paper) or between two sheets of foam and let the foaming action of the PU glues turn the whole thing into a very rigid structure.

You can see good some examples of building with sheet foam in the Big Blue 96" build. That bit wing was flexible enough to be a little spooky in flight. But the wing never failed in flight. A receiver failure put big blue down hard and I've never gotten it back together...

Jack
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Old Nov 02, 2014, 11:54 AM
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...A2TLTYG8U2QKGY
was wondering if this wire would work i don't want to make purchases from ebay for personal reasons . and i am defiantly not spending as much as a new motor in parts to fix the old one . work is scarce around here and so is money otherwise i would be outside right now flying a brand new radian if it weren't so windy lol i was flying my modified champ i lightened the fuselage by sanding most of it away made larger ruder flaps and tail flaps plus installed the micro radian receiver and motor its stable fast and lighter then the original plane. i think it is anyway
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Old Nov 02, 2014, 12:13 PM
Jack
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Joined May 2008
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That should work fine, it appears to be nearly identical to that wire I posted a link to.

What happens to most of us that wind motors is that we eventually accumulate a number of sizes of wire and also we keep a box of scrap wire pieces so we use the scraps to test the fit and fill and then do the wind.

The moment of truth will be when you try to get 11 turns on an arm where these is one or two adjacent arms that have already been wound. You may find that the wire might not want to pass down between the turns on the other arms.

When that happens, I use the tip of a broken prop blade to press the turns already there back against the arms. And if there is still not room I may have to thread a turn down between the turns. That is what we call a "money turn" and it usually means that you are using the largest practical wire. But when you get to the point where you need one more turn and a money turn won't fit, it is probably time to drop back one wire size...

You can see how the money turn is done in this post:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...00&postcount=4

Jack
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Old Nov 02, 2014, 11:50 PM
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i think i am getting confused the kit motor is the same 12 post mottor and seems to have the identical wiring patern however the kit says it comes with 28 guage wire if i use 21 or22 i dont tnink i will be able to get 11 turns . there is one good thing i googled electric motor rewind shops in my area and theres one right in town i will go there and get some wire tomorow i also checked out a thread which had 8 wraps but thats all that would fit on thew arm . it looks like in my photo like 6 wires in the bundle ..............i use to be an aircraft mechanic in thu navy so i did lots of safty wiring that should be helpful
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Old Nov 03, 2014, 10:14 AM
Jack
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Did you ever count the strands in the bundle? And can you measure one strand?

In most cases the strands are 0.25mm to 0.30mm in diameter. So if you use that wiki page and look up the area for one strand you can see that a diameter of 0.30mm is about the same as 29 AWG and that 29 AWG has a cross section area of 0.0642 mm2 (millimeters squared).

Multiply the 0.0642 mm2 by the number of strands that were in your bundle to find the single strand size that would have about the same cross section area. If you had six strands in the bundle 6 x 0.0642 mm2 = 0.3852 mm2 and as you read up that column with the mm2 figures you can see it falls between 21 and 22 AWG wire.

And, typically, if you use a strand of 21 AWG or maybe 22 AWG you will be able to get the turns on. If you use 22 AWG and turns fit easily, the next time you wind it try 21.

Always think in terms of have to use a given number of turns to get the Kv right and using the largest possible wire that will let you do that so that you get the highest current capacity/least resistance in the windings.

Each motor will be a little different as far as what Kv you get for a given number of turns. So you need to know what your Kv and turn count is now to predict the Kv you'll with other turn counts. We have a turn calculator that will let us use a known Kv and turn count to predict other turn counts. That is all described in those threads I posted links to...

Jack
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Old Nov 03, 2014, 02:50 PM
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wow so much to learn and its a bit confusing buti guess once i learn all this stuff it will be a piece of cake . one other thing i dont understand is whats a money turn is that a critical point wheree something can go wrong and what will go wrong a tangle . dont worry about me i will read everything again before i start im in no rush and were in a bit of a windy season down here a big cold front moved in i flew my souped up champ yesterday in 16 mph wind and landed safely lol the summer months are best to fly down here the sky is thick with all kinds of birds of prey soaring and the air is calm except for passing thermals
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Old Nov 03, 2014, 04:32 PM
Jack
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It will all fall into place.

If you can imagine looking down from the top between two arms in cross section, you would have the parallel and side by side strands on each arm and they become closer together as the "V" between the arms narrows. So as the second layer of turns goes on, the turns on the two arms start to crowd each other. And then there won't be room for a turn to pass between the two arms. But there will be room for you to take the end of the wire (gently sanded so as not to be sharp enough to damage the coating on the wire) and push it down and through between the two arms.

Someone called that the "money turn" and the name stuck. It can be the secret of getting that last turn or two on to attain the turn count and get that small extra amount of copper into the windings.

At that link, I pushed a lightly lubricated T-pin down through the crowded area and that gently moved the wires aside a little. Them I pulled the pin out and push the strand of wire through where the pin had been. And I pulled it down carefully, making sure it was not twisted so as to avoid a kink in the wire. And that was a "money turn"! When one of those goes on you can hurt you rarm trying to pat yourself on the back in congratulations!

You have the interest or all this would have driven you away already. That happens quite often.... :>) You are almost addicted and on your way to becoming a man knitter.

By the way, you say you were an aircraft mechanic, were you an Airdale? Or a brown shoe? Maybe an AD or AM? If that all sound like gibberish, it was because you were not in the Navy. I was a black shoe (a non-aviation rating) in the Navy and gave them 26 years with no regrets at all. I have now been retired almost as long as I was in...

Jack
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Old Nov 07, 2014, 04:24 PM
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ok jack to my surprise the wire just arrived and i haven't even cleaned up the stator although it doesn't look bad i was wondering if i should lightly sand it and coat it with a thin coat of epoxy or clear enamel , i have several airbrushes i can just do a couple of real light coats or just lightly scuf it to get rid of the rugh surface . the embarrassing wind i did free hand real quick the other i placed an end of the wire in the vise to hold it tight and used a pair of pliers to snap the wire lightly to get it to bend nice and tight . the most i can possibly get is 7 wraps , when you say i need 11 does that mean in a row or 11 wraps total on the single stator i am wiring? is it ok to just do 6 in one direction and 5 back? as long as the stator is filled with wire or should i go with a finer gauge and wire it twice. i don't have a set of calipers so i am not sure of the original wire size .just wonering if i wired it any way as long as i stick to some of the formula if the motor would still work at all . its just going on a glider .
ps i was just practicing wiring around the stator . the way i look at it is by the time i finish. the last group i wire will probably look 100% better than the first.
als i am aware i dont want to do anything that will cause a nick in the wire coating that will cause a short
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Old Nov 07, 2014, 04:26 PM
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its 22 guage
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